Black and White

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » Fri May 24, 2002 12:38 pm

Greetings All,

I do not post very often, but thought I would share my new project. With generous help from Patrick Thaden (Thaden Armouries) I am making a German Black and White Half Harness Circa. 1600. I am making it as historically correct as possible.
I decided to start from the top and work down.

The Burgonet bowl is two piece construction16ga. Mild steel. The ear flaps are 18ga. and the rear neck lame is 20ga. It weights 4-1/2 Lbs. It is hand painted with a brush.

Thanks to Patrick I am able to post a picture. More can be found on my site
www.geocities.com/neilerasmus/New.html

[img]http://www.thadenpierce.com/armor/neilspics/bur003.jpg[/img]

Cheers
Melchior

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Melchior Erasmi von Frankfurt
AKA Neil Erasmus
In Service to the Dream
Visit my site
www.geocities.com/neilerasmus/index.html

[This message has been edited by Melchior (edited 06-06-2002).]

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri May 24, 2002 12:44 pm

OH! that is very nice and you have a fine and noble master. One should be so lucky.
Thank you for sharing.

Hal. looking forward to more.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri May 24, 2002 12:45 pm

Melchior

That helm kicks ass!

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri May 24, 2002 12:56 pm

My Lord you do most excellent work. I love this stuff! I may be placing an order with you some time this year. But first I have to save up for Pennsic

But there is always Christmas

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Bertram · Post by **Bertram** » Fri May 24, 2002 2:18 pm

Nice. I used to own a Pembridge helm you made and was very happy with it. I ended up selling it to Damned Dane along with the rest of my armour to pay rent and buy food

I was kind of upset that he turned right back around and sold it for a profit on eBay (esp. becuase of the ensuing fiasco.)

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Fri May 24, 2002 8:15 pm

That is a very nice, clean piece of work.

Just curious... How did you attach the 2 pieces of the bowl? Welded or with a rolled seam? I can't see that level of detail in the pictures.

Wade

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » Tue May 28, 2002 12:19 pm

Thank you all for the kind words. As the harness progresses I will let you know. Next is the Gorgret. Then the Breast and Back Plate. Without Patrick Thaden's help I would never gotten this far he is a wonderful artist and instructor.

Wade, Your comments were well appreciated. But I did cheat. The comb and halfs are in one. The halfs are welded.

Cheers
Melchior

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed May 29, 2002 10:18 am

No problem on the cheat - I have done that too. I was just curious how picky you were being.

I have also done one with an actual rolled seam to join the plates.... It would probably be easy after a few of them....

From what I have seen, they did do burgonets with seams - but they were really only the cheapest. They seem to have done a lot more morions that way (maybe they were just cheaper....).

The weld should simulate a one piece one well enough.

Similar question - how is the brim attached? Most of the real ones are integral with the one piece bowl, but I have one which was riveted on.

Wade

Edric · Post by **Edric** » Wed May 29, 2002 11:48 am

You might want to talk with krag (krag@kragaxe.com). He was doing a black and white gorget a little while back and it was looking mighty spiffy.

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--Edric de Aldebury--
edric@edricsrose.com
http://www.edricsrose.com

Flos est puellarum, quam diligio, et rosa rosarum, quam sepe video.
"My love is a flower among virgins, and a rose among roses"

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Wed May 29, 2002 11:51 am

Wade,
I hope Melchior doesn't mind me answering. We actually did discuss the attachement of the brim as to weld or rivet or make it integral with the helm halves. I have seen several that were riveted including the one you have, but it seemed that more of them in this style had a brim that was integral with the skull of the helm. We decided a welded one would give a nice clean look without the added difficulties of having them integral with the skull. The harness he is looking to style after was done with the bill as part of the skull of the helm as well.
Patrick

------------------
Patrick Thaden
Thaden Armory
http://www.thadenarmory.com

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed May 29, 2002 7:45 pm

No problem on the brim - I was just curious.

All it means is that you have done a good copy of the overall effect of a raised hat. There are just some short-cuts in the manufacture. It will look right. Having played with burgonets... I have done the same thing to get a good, authentic look.

A one piece, raised one would have been cooler - but it would have produced the same basic result and you wouldn't have any time for the rest of the harness. I can handle that kind of compromise.

The end result really does look good. Its weight is probably very similar to the real ones I have.

Wade

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » Fri May 31, 2002 11:53 am

Wade,
I went for the look and feel, But not all the work. The rest of the harness will not have the short cuts. I have an edge roller, but will not use it on this.

I do have a question. I have not been able to handel the real thing, only a lot of pictures. The question is, can you give me advise on how to make and install a liner for the Helm?

Melchior

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:06 am

The details of the liner will depend on the intended quality of the piece - but the basics are the same.

Start with a row of rivets along the brow and along the neck. Rivet a leather strap into each of these (one running basically from the edge of the brim to the other edge, the other along the back above the tail lame. These seem to be about 1/2 inch wide and they are held in (on the type of hat you are doing) with washers on the inside and low-domed rivets on the outside. You really need some custom 1/8" rivets with larger heads than normal. Roberto had some made at one point, someday some more will be made....

When the burgonet has a moveable fall (brim), the rivets on the brow are put in the other way with big heads and the outside is basically flush. The rivets at the neck seem to have used round heads and washers in both cases.

The liners I have seen are then cloth and quilted. They are formed of two pieces joined along the center (the same way your helmet bowl is) and then it is sewn to the bottom edge of the leather strips you riveted to the helmet bowl. This means that all the nasty rivet heads and washers are covered up so they don't touch your head.

It seems on the cheap helmets that they just didn't bother to cover anything but the bowl. On better ones, there was also a lining for the cheek plates - attached in the same way. There are 2 leather strips - one running down the front edge of the face hole, the other along the bottom of the cheek plate right above the flair.

You can see the rivet lines for the lining strips on the burgonets on my site.

I do not have one that is good enough to have the rivets on the cheekplates for the linings.

The lining seems not to fit the helmet closely - it forms a simple suspension harness.

For more details I would have to look things up....

Wade

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:57 pm

Thanks Wade for the info. I will give it a go.
I am starting the Gorget this weekend. Did the spaulders attach to the Gorget with a leather strap? With the Gorget under the Breast and Back plate this seems the most logical way to attach them.

Melchior

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:02 pm

You need to be closer.....

I have a gorget with little plates on the ends and a single shoulder from a munion (the thing you are making - gorget/shoulders in one).

The back is on sliding rivets, the front on leathers (and the middle too). The final point connecting to the gorget is long on one side (so it can flex when the thing is opened) and the other one detaches so that you can actually open the thing. Usually then the gorget itself has a keyhole to hold the 2 parts together and then a nice one has a pin and hole on the top lame of the gorget.

I am sure I have pictures of all of this in something..... and I have the parts I mentioned. By the way - I also have a full B&W breast and back.....

Maybe someday I will work out a show-and-tell day for people to play with stuff... How to do it.....

Wade

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:05 pm

Oh, yes - how High end is your gorget? Will the neck part be integral, a straight tube or a nice, tapered thing?

If it is a nice tapered thing (well, maybe the others too) I have a theory about making the back part actually work.

Hint - the front is trivial - the back actually has to fit to your shoulders and neck to make this whole thing work. Remember - all of the weight of the cuirass will be riding on it. After staring at my real gorget I came up with a simple(ish) way to get a good shape. It looks really stupid - though not as off as the gusset method.

Wade

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:08 pm

I just can't get all my thoughts down....

By the way - post a picture of what you are copying. That will provide inspiration for some and help others know where you are going if you have questions. The general ideas are obvious (at least to me), but details vary and it is better not to send you down some odd path (like if you aren't actually planning on making munions....).

If you can't host it, e-mail it to me and I can post it for you.

Wade

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:10 pm

Wade, Thanks aqain for the helpfull information. Here is an image of the one Melchior is working to style his harness after. The gorget set up was going to be done as this one is. [img]http://www.thadenpierce.com/armor/neilspics/black_white01.jpg[/img]
I am not quite sure what it is your were commenting on the back part of the gorget though. Are you speaking of how the neck plates articulated in relation to the back part, or something else? What other ways would the top neck lame have closed on historical examples? I think I have only seen them done with a hole and stud. Thanks. Patrick

[This message has been edited by Armour Bob (edited 06-05-2002).]

Patrick Thaden · Post by **Patrick Thaden** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:00 pm

Another question, are you speaking of which kind of connection for the spaulders? Or does it matter?[img]http://www.thadenpierce.com/armor/untitled-05.jpg[/img] hard to see in this image, kind of a funny shaped slot with a button head
?
[img]http://www.thadenpierce.com/armor/untitled-03.jpg[/img] Would the shoulder plate be studded to go up through the gorget or would there be a plate attached to the leathers with the stud extending up through the gorget?
On another note, what in the heck were these studs for?
[img]http://www.thadenpierce.com/armor/untitled-04.jpg[/img] Thanks, Patrick

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » Thu Jun 06, 2002 1:07 pm

This site that has really good photo's.
http://www.fineantiquearms.com/
I am using them as a guide. I do not want to do an exact copy. It needs to have my style added.

The Gorget will be interesting. I have a large neck, what there is of it. So the Gorget will have to be short. It may only get one lame. Yes it will have the flair.

Will post pick after the weekend with my progress.

Thanks Wade for all you info. You are being a great help. I wish we were closer as well.

M