What other armours go with a Coat of plates?
More specifically what types of arms and legs. Would a Placard be worn? What type of helm? I know next to nothing on this period.
I currently fight with a late roman so my interest and knowledge goes primarily there. But I have an old COP that I could redo the leather on and put something together really nice when I'm not fighting with my normal group.
Stupid research question.
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Konstantin the Red
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Helms: sugarloaf, great, or round cap. Bascinet and camail are pushing it but might make it under the wire, especially if early types are emphasized.
You are talking a bodily defense that had its run between the last quarter of the 13th through the mid 14th centuries.
You should be safe with gamboised-cuisse legs and early-type plate arms. Hourglass gaunts.
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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
You are talking a bodily defense that had its run between the last quarter of the 13th through the mid 14th centuries.
You should be safe with gamboised-cuisse legs and early-type plate arms. Hourglass gaunts.
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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Konstantin the Red:
Helms: sugarloaf, great, or round cap. Bascinet and camail are pushing it but might make it under the wire, especially if early types are emphasized. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, a bascinet is *perfectly* reasonable for a Coat of Plates! Look at the effigies of Sir John D'Abernon, or Sir John de Creke, to name just two; both from before the middle of the century. For a later and more fitted CoP, look at the effigy of Sir John Stapleton! No, a bascinet isn't "pushing it" at all.
I think you should, however, avoid the sugarloaf; that was really a pre-transitional helm for the most part, and would pre-date the wearing of good arm armor. Hourglass gauntlets are fine, too, but Wisby-style gauntlets are another option, especially if you make the harness a bit on the earlier side.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
Helms: sugarloaf, great, or round cap. Bascinet and camail are pushing it but might make it under the wire, especially if early types are emphasized. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, a bascinet is *perfectly* reasonable for a Coat of Plates! Look at the effigies of Sir John D'Abernon, or Sir John de Creke, to name just two; both from before the middle of the century. For a later and more fitted CoP, look at the effigy of Sir John Stapleton! No, a bascinet isn't "pushing it" at all.
I think you should, however, avoid the sugarloaf; that was really a pre-transitional helm for the most part, and would pre-date the wearing of good arm armor. Hourglass gauntlets are fine, too, but Wisby-style gauntlets are another option, especially if you make the harness a bit on the earlier side.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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Gaston de Clermont
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The broad family of coats of plate had a few generations. The first shows up in the late 13th century. It was a bit blocky and simplistic. Plates were typically rectangular and in the range of 2 to 6 inches on a side. Many of the Wisby harnesses (1361) are typical of this style where it lingered in one of Europe's backwater areas later than the "chic" neighborhoods.
This classic coat of plates would be consistent with a great helm, probably one with a fairly large top, as the caps shrank as the 14th century progressed. A kettle hat would be OK, and early bascinets could go with it, but they might be a bit more fitting with the next generation. Complete plate arm defenses hadn't really evolved by this era. Simple cops and splints limb defenses were common.
The second generation was styled to accentuate a slender waist. Sometimes these guys are called corazzinas. The plate shapes are more specialized, many have distinctive lung plates, and some started to develop faulds and tassets. I'd happily wear a bascinet with one of these, though a great helm might be the choice for jousting (some had lance rests). The date range is the later half of the 14th century into the early 15th. There were major advancements in limb armour during this era, spanning from the last vestiges of splinted armour to completely enclosed plate vambraces and greaves, and cuisses that covered more than half the thigh.
The third generation which some might argue shouldn't bear its grandfather's name- is generally refered to as the brigandine. The plates are frequently small, and the shape of all surviving examples is well fitted. This style was pretty common throughout the 15th century, and some variation of it might have been worn with a plackart (i.e. a sort of body bracelet), allowing the upper body to be protected by the smaller plates. There are 16th century examples of brigandines, and even some tailored for dogs. A lot of folks wore these, and their limb harnesses could vary dramatically by their station. It would probably be inconsistent to wear an elaborate gothic arm harness with a simple brigandine- one is complete and expensive coverage, while the other is relatively light weight. You might consider a barbute, or perhaps a sallet with this style. A kettle hat might be a cool choice too.
Much of the classification I use here is modern, and there's scads of grey area between the generations. I'd honestly be surprised if a half dozen scholars can agree with each other on the subject.
An honest evaluation of where your harness falls, and possibly trying to copy an effigy or illumination would put you on a good path.
Gaston de Clermont
This classic coat of plates would be consistent with a great helm, probably one with a fairly large top, as the caps shrank as the 14th century progressed. A kettle hat would be OK, and early bascinets could go with it, but they might be a bit more fitting with the next generation. Complete plate arm defenses hadn't really evolved by this era. Simple cops and splints limb defenses were common.
The second generation was styled to accentuate a slender waist. Sometimes these guys are called corazzinas. The plate shapes are more specialized, many have distinctive lung plates, and some started to develop faulds and tassets. I'd happily wear a bascinet with one of these, though a great helm might be the choice for jousting (some had lance rests). The date range is the later half of the 14th century into the early 15th. There were major advancements in limb armour during this era, spanning from the last vestiges of splinted armour to completely enclosed plate vambraces and greaves, and cuisses that covered more than half the thigh.
The third generation which some might argue shouldn't bear its grandfather's name- is generally refered to as the brigandine. The plates are frequently small, and the shape of all surviving examples is well fitted. This style was pretty common throughout the 15th century, and some variation of it might have been worn with a plackart (i.e. a sort of body bracelet), allowing the upper body to be protected by the smaller plates. There are 16th century examples of brigandines, and even some tailored for dogs. A lot of folks wore these, and their limb harnesses could vary dramatically by their station. It would probably be inconsistent to wear an elaborate gothic arm harness with a simple brigandine- one is complete and expensive coverage, while the other is relatively light weight. You might consider a barbute, or perhaps a sallet with this style. A kettle hat might be a cool choice too.
Much of the classification I use here is modern, and there's scads of grey area between the generations. I'd honestly be surprised if a half dozen scholars can agree with each other on the subject.
An honest evaluation of where your harness falls, and possibly trying to copy an effigy or illumination would put you on a good path.
Gaston de Clermont
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Tom Knighton
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It's real hard to give you anything solid without know the plate pattern.
However, I *believe* that a plackart wouldn't be worn with a brigandine (they are both from about the same time period). The shape of the upper torso armor in period illustrations appears to be more globular in shape (for lack of a better word) and were probably covered breastplates.
As for other armor that would be appropraite, bascinets are THE helm of the 14th Century. This was when the Coat of Plates was in its heyday. Also there are lots of choices for limb armor including plate.
I am afraid that most of this is going off of memory so please, anyone feel free to contradict me if you have information that I'm not recalling correctly.
Bran
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Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.
However, I *believe* that a plackart wouldn't be worn with a brigandine (they are both from about the same time period). The shape of the upper torso armor in period illustrations appears to be more globular in shape (for lack of a better word) and were probably covered breastplates.
As for other armor that would be appropraite, bascinets are THE helm of the 14th Century. This was when the Coat of Plates was in its heyday. Also there are lots of choices for limb armor including plate.
I am afraid that most of this is going off of memory so please, anyone feel free to contradict me if you have information that I'm not recalling correctly.
Bran
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Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.
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Gaston de Clermont
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I think a lot of the globular shape we see in plackart-coat of plate cominations comes from the plackart and its faulds:
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0011.jpg
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0047.jpg
The plated upper body protection they're wearing are fitted, and I could see them being called corazzinas, but at least in these examples I don't see the lung plates I'd associate with that style, and the tucked in waist is clearly under the plate portion.
Also, bascinets didn't really become the main helm for most of Europe until well into the 14th century. Barrel helms and sugar loafs dominated the first third of the century, and the bascinet really became the main helm after the black death. A lot of effigies from the first half of the century depict smaller bascinets that might have been worn under helms, but the full sized stand a lone visored version we're most familiar with is later.
The barrel helm and kettle hat were the only ones worn thoughout the 14th century.
Gaston de Clermont
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0011.jpg
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0047.jpg
The plated upper body protection they're wearing are fitted, and I could see them being called corazzinas, but at least in these examples I don't see the lung plates I'd associate with that style, and the tucked in waist is clearly under the plate portion.
Also, bascinets didn't really become the main helm for most of Europe until well into the 14th century. Barrel helms and sugar loafs dominated the first third of the century, and the bascinet really became the main helm after the black death. A lot of effigies from the first half of the century depict smaller bascinets that might have been worn under helms, but the full sized stand a lone visored version we're most familiar with is later.
The barrel helm and kettle hat were the only ones worn thoughout the 14th century.
Gaston de Clermont