When the Crusaders of St. Louis fell upon Diametta, they captured the town almost intact (except for what that nasty greek fire did). In letters from that campaign, it was stated amongst the stores of the city they found arms. Would it be accurate for the crusaders, especially commoners and lesser noblility to take these arms at five finger discount? If so, would the armor be Byzantine in look? Obviously Islamic as well, but would Byzantine armor be found?
The reason for the question is I'm looking for an arm harness for a 13th century crusader. In a thread lower on the page i've asked about covering mail with a gambeson, and thats fine and dandy but I need to be SCA legal. I was wondering what armor was worn by the Muslims and Bzyantines at the time, if it would be legal, and also if it would be plausable to find it on a western crusader...
Crusader salvaging
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Thomas of Tadcaster
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Egfroth
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thomas of Tadcaster:
Would it be accurate for the crusaders, especially commoners and lesser noblility to take these arms at five finger discount?
Most certainly; still happens, and it's documented that it happened back then, despite the best attmpts of the leaders to get it put into the "common store" (ie keep the best stuff for themselves).
If so, would the armor be Byzantine in look? Obviously Islamic as well, but would Byzantine armor be found?
In a word, no. There;d be no reason for there to be Byzantine armour in Damietta at this time. Its time under Byzantine control was long gone, and the Arabs had perfectly adequate armour of their own.<B>
The reason for the question is I'm looking for an arm harness for a 13th century crusader. In a thread lower on the page i've asked about covering mail with a gambeson, and thats fine and dandy but I need to be SCA legal. I was wondering what armor was worn by the Muslims and Bzyantines at the time, if it would be legal, and also if it would be plausable to find it on a western crusader... </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what kind of protection are you talking about? What part of the arm do you need to protect per SCA requirements, and what with? Maybe you could put thick leather or padding under the mail?
Otherwise, yer standard C13 Crusader had simply mail sleeves with integral mittens (called mufflers) to protect the arms. Have a look at http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm for a good overview.
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Egfroth
"Power; it corrupts! I can FEEL it!!
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos
Would it be accurate for the crusaders, especially commoners and lesser noblility to take these arms at five finger discount?
Most certainly; still happens, and it's documented that it happened back then, despite the best attmpts of the leaders to get it put into the "common store" (ie keep the best stuff for themselves).
If so, would the armor be Byzantine in look? Obviously Islamic as well, but would Byzantine armor be found?
In a word, no. There;d be no reason for there to be Byzantine armour in Damietta at this time. Its time under Byzantine control was long gone, and the Arabs had perfectly adequate armour of their own.<B>
The reason for the question is I'm looking for an arm harness for a 13th century crusader. In a thread lower on the page i've asked about covering mail with a gambeson, and thats fine and dandy but I need to be SCA legal. I was wondering what armor was worn by the Muslims and Bzyantines at the time, if it would be legal, and also if it would be plausable to find it on a western crusader... </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what kind of protection are you talking about? What part of the arm do you need to protect per SCA requirements, and what with? Maybe you could put thick leather or padding under the mail?
Otherwise, yer standard C13 Crusader had simply mail sleeves with integral mittens (called mufflers) to protect the arms. Have a look at http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm for a good overview.
------------------
Egfroth
"Power; it corrupts! I can FEEL it!!
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos
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Thomas of Tadcaster
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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
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Thomas,
I have hardened leather vambraces with an elbow cop loosely stitched to it that I wear under my gambeson. They are fairly stout pieces and have held up very well. I've stitched some wool felt into the cop itself to keep the leather from rubbing my skin raw. I do the same with the cuisses and knee cops. Hardened leather with padding worn under gambiosed cuisses. No visible armour outside of my maille and gambeson. Well, I *do* wear a helmet and gloves...
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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Home Page
I have hardened leather vambraces with an elbow cop loosely stitched to it that I wear under my gambeson. They are fairly stout pieces and have held up very well. I've stitched some wool felt into the cop itself to keep the leather from rubbing my skin raw. I do the same with the cuisses and knee cops. Hardened leather with padding worn under gambiosed cuisses. No visible armour outside of my maille and gambeson. Well, I *do* wear a helmet and gloves...
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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Home Page
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Gaston de Clermont
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In Odo's account of that crusade there's also mention of a great deal of equipment lost during various river crossings, from the strange floods that plagued the German army, and simply having to leave things behind while they were being pursued. I'd love to follow their route with a metal detector, and a shovel.
The Ottomans did employ local troops in Hungary to help expand their empire. They might be more likely to use a mix of Muslim and Christian armour than French and German crusaders.
Gaston de Clermont
The Ottomans did employ local troops in Hungary to help expand their empire. They might be more likely to use a mix of Muslim and Christian armour than French and German crusaders.
Gaston de Clermont
