period helmet liners

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 11:10 pm

Anyone have any good pictuers of the inside of some period helmet liners?

I have Price's bible, so i have a few.

I really want to know what my attachement options are for things like suspension liners.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:43 am

What options are open to you will depend on the period, ie. what type of helm.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 6:44 am

Yes - what type of helmet and what period.

There aren't many ways they did it, but they are different so we don't want to lead you astray.

Wade

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 12:20 pm

I've got the same question Murdock had, except i don't have any reference pic's to work from. Helm type for me is a Bascinet, circa 1375.

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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 12:40 pm

Bascinet

Simple padded lining forming a sack. Usually (we have lots of examples

) having a 'drawstring' like top to allow it to be fitted a little bit.

It is sewn to the edge of the helmet through a bunch of holes around the edge of the helmet. These holes go all the way around the bottom edge and up over the face.

Other than boring all the holes in the helmet it is nice and simple.

Wade

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 12:59 pm

Here's a good one...what would the liner in a close helm be, historically? There's not room for a suspension liner.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:02 pm

oops

Basically a bascinet (been answered, thanks)

Barbute

Kettle hat

Tnanks much!!

Bartok · Post by **Bartok** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:26 pm

I'm curious as to what lining or padding would have been in a great helm. I wear a sugarloaf and was thinking about using something similar to the padding in a bascinet...

Bartok
SCA: Gilbert the Short

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:45 pm

Hey Murdoch, the kettle hat would have a leather suspension system riveted around the brow. I think the Barbute was done the same way. Perhaps with a padded arming cap beneath.....Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:49 pm

I'm pretty clueless about a sugarloaf,but I would think that would have a leather suspension,like in a hard hat,and then a padded cap would be worn beneath that.Maybe with a padded "torse" like reinforcement around the brow of the cap....Otto

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:00 pm

Anyone who is not stretching the literature I have seen will have to guess on the lining for early helms. We just don't really have data.

Barbute. If you look at them there is a line of rivets around them. It is roughly in the same place as the rivets on a salade (but there is more metal below the line on a barbute due to the different shape). Rivet a leather strip into the helmet along this line. Sew a quilted liner to the strip. This is probably like the salad ones of the same period - roughly 4 triangles tied together at the top.

Armet - later ones are simlple. They work the same way the later burgonets work. Leather strip at the front and back with a shaped quilted bag fromed of 2 pieces joined down the center front to back.

Earlier armets have rivets along the edge of the bowl - must have been for a lining leather strip and a quilted cap. I don't know of one with a surviving lining (I should look in Churburg....), so details are a matter for experimental archaeology.

Basically all of the later ones (post bascinet) are a leather strip riveted to the bowl and quilted cap of some form sewn to the leather strip. The exact form varies with time and helmet type (and quality).

Wade

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:46 am

As for greathelms/sugarloafs, they were usually shown under the head on effigies during the 14th century.
I have come across a couple of examples where the artist has gone to the trouble of showing the lining inside the helm.
One is shown in a linedrawing of the Effigy of Ulrich de Werd, Landgraf of Lower Alsace, Swabia, c1345. Located in the Church of St. William, Strasbourg. From the book, "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, 1050-1350".
Not enough detail is given, but there is obviously some kind of suspension lining, either of quilted fabric or leather, which must have been similar to later helms.

bernwald · Post by **bernwald** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:29 am

so would most great helms have been lined, or setup to fit with say leather straping over a barbute that would be lined

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:26 pm

I have had a couple of questions that may be helped by pictures.

Bascinets - Here are some shots. They will show the lining and the spacing a sizes of the holes for the lining.

Bascinet with lining from Churburg

2 bascinets in the Tower (at least formerly) showing holes

The Churburg book indicates that the bascinet linings are padded with draw strings and crenellated at the top. They are stuffed. One is canvas, the other is wool.

Some have talked about later linings as well - here are 2 shots of a burgonet lining.

burgonet lining

lower edge of the lining showing the attachment to the helmet

Wade

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:16 pm

Thanks Wade.

Wish I could see that in person, looks good.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bernwald:
so would most great helms have been lined, or setup to fit with say leather straping over a barbute that would be lined</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greathelms were worn over coifs, cervelliers or bascinets, the term barbute sometimes having been used instead of bascinet but seems to no longer be applied to them.

I don't know. It's most likely that different types of suspension/padding were used. Some greathelms were worn over coifs, and thus would have had a good suspension liner, but those worn over a bascinet for example, may have had a much more rudimentary setup.
In the drawing mentioned in my last post, it seems to have been either a leather or cloth suspension liner.
The bascinets and certainly some of the cervelliers worn under the helm would have had a good, cloth suspension liner, as Wade has been explaining.

Erik

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:04 am

Wade

Is the burgonet lining also put in by holes in the helm like the Bascinets? Or is is it glued in?

Thanks

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:42 pm

If you look carefully at the pictures of the burgonet you can see rivets (esp. on the left as you are looking at it) in the helmet bowl. These attach a strip of leather. The lining is sewn to the bottob edge of this leather strip.

You can see the rivets that hold this leather strip on most of the helmets you see - it is the line of rivets you see along the neck line and across the brow line of 16th. c. helmets. The same is done with the line of rivets on salads and barbutes.

I am only guessing, but I think that this 2 stage attachment was developed to allow a relatively permanent attachment to the bowl of the helmet so there are not little stitches to get cut (and the metal of the helmet won't cut the thread either). Onto this you then whip stitch the lining.

You can then remove the lining when necessary by cutting some stitches. You don't have to mess with the helmet itself. You don't have stitches on the outside. Clean and easy to deal with.

I have used this method. It actually makes a nice clean result. It allows for low-tech repairs. It is also the way they did it 15th. c. and later.

Wade

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:49 am

Now I see it. Thanks.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:18 pm

Does anyone have a good theory about the flanges around the face opening on this helm:
http://allenantiques.com/misc/Tower-bascinets.jpg
Claude Blair indicates they existed to deflect blows away from the vervelles, but I'm having a hard time picturing a shot that hits the helm and really threatens them.
What's the real deal with those flanges?
Gaston de Clermont

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:43 pm

They do seem to extend as far from the helm as the vervelles,making them good deflectors if thats what they are. Sounds pretty logical to me.Those tube vervelles do look a little flimsy.Also a steel sword can really slide across the steel,more so than rattan,so a downward stroke could slide down the side of the helm and pose a threat to the tubes...Otto

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:03 am

I agree with Otto. I can see no other likely function for them, and it seems they would work well to protect the vervelles and aventail attachment from sword blows down the side of the helm.
Personally I have not come across them in any other than N Italian and Germanic effigies and extant bascinets, which leads me to believe that they were only fitted to bascinets with klappvisors. If you think about it, the side hinged visors would help to protect the vervelles and aventail attachment, whereas the klappvisors do not cover the side area of the helm, and would provide no protection there, thus requiring the lugs.

Erik

Cenobite · Post by **Cenobite** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:19 am

No idea if its authentic, but it is a helm I once owned.....

[img]http://www.cenobite.demon.co.uk/images/helminside.jpg[/img]

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Sun Aug 04, 2002 8:52 pm

When I was in Rome there was a bascinet dated around 1389 and the liner was sewn to a leather strip that had been rivited into the small holes around the bottom edge of the helm.

There were just remnants of the original liner, but most of what remained was the stitched part. The liner was turned inside out and stitched to the leather strip like a mirror image of the helm.

Then, it was pushed inside to form a parallel liner to the helmet. Then another leather strip was rivited in and the liner was stitched to this around the face. THe leather strip folded over and it covered the back of the rivits.

I have tried mounting a liner after this fashion, and have to say it works well and is very comfy.

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www.hosekileather.homestead.com

</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:05 am

Which museum in Rome was it?
Were the rivets put into every one of the small holes? If not, then I guess it was meant to be stitched through the holes, and the rivet and leather method was a later alteration.
I think bascinets of the 14th century were somewhat unusual because the liner was stitched in. I think most of the helmets used in the ceturies before and after had their linings attached by a riveted leather strap.
I think Greek helmet liners were also stitched in, as well as some in the 'dark ages'.

Erik

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:33 am

You can see how I did my suspension liner for my basinet here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gallery/helm_liner/helm_liner.htm

I based it on Brian Price's book, and examples of others here on the Archive. I have no idea how period it is, other than it does rely on small holes all along the bottom opening of the helm, which I have seen on surviving examples.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:56 am

How does it hold up to a good whollap on the side? Absorb the impact of a heavy hit fairly decent? Looks decent, something I would like to do for my Sugarloaf.

Saranac Goetz < Not to be confused with Sarnac Kahn of the Middle >

Raymund · Post by **Raymund** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:40 pm

On this greathelm there is a row of small holes around the brow, my guess is that a liner was sewn to them as on later helmets.

http://www.hermann-historica.com/hist/42auction/lot/lot-gb_258.htm

A suggested reconstruction of the liner on the Dargen helm can be found here:
http://w1.600.telia.com/~u60000007/liner/

/R

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:49 pm

Here's a webpage on 2 helmet linings I did a while back:

http://finkas.home.netcom.com/SCA/HelmetLining-1.html

BTW: Beautiful work on that bascinet liner, Steve!

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Tim Finkas, Sculptor & Proprietor<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/HSB/HSBMAIN.html" TARGET=_blank>
Historical Stud & Buckle Company</A>

[This message has been edited by StudBuckle (edited 08-14-2002).]