14th century chairs

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:10 pm

I've been looking at chairs for camping. I like the "Savonarola" chair, but cannot document it before the 15th century. What other chair styles are approprioate for the 14th century?

HugoFuchs · Post by **HugoFuchs** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:36 pm

Seems that in the 14th century that the way to sit was on:
1) the ground
2) a cushion
3) a simple stool
4) a bench, large & small, simple and elaborate
4) an elaborate fauldstool
5) a heavy chair/throne.

plans for the fauldstool

[This message has been edited by HugoFuchs (edited 01-01-2003).]

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:28 am

The how-to makes it look easy!

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HugoFuchs:
<snip>
4) a bench, large & small, simple and elaborate
4) an elaborate fauldstool
plans for the fauldstool

[This message has been edited by HugoFuchs (edited 01-01-2003).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, he's sittin' Roman style! But with a proper slouch ... it looks mighty comfy!

Honestly though ... it really depends on what you're looking for and what station you're lookin' for. For me these are pretty much dead on. X-Stools, benches and pillows. A soldier during the hunrid' year pissin' match didn't have much choice. It had to travel light and be durable. I'll do some more checkin and see if I can find some more stuff (sorry for the lack of info .. go in late tonight ...)

------------------
"His troops would follow him anywhere ... but only out of curiousity!"

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:07 am

Our reenacting group has some X chairs they're not the comfiest (is that even a word?) but better than the ground! I was wondering if anyone knows how to make them as I'd like to have a go at one of them myself. What wood would be best to use?

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:33 pm

I've been troubled by the same challenge, and I'm afraid Hugo may well be right. I'd probably add chests to his list of seating options. Seats with backs don't seem to be particularly common in the 14th century, and I have yet to find one that I consider to be portable.
Granted, it's 15th century, but I've been wanting to tackle the folding chair on this page for a while:
http://www.greydragon.org/trips/xmas00/
It might be a little more work than the fauld stool listed above, but it doesn't look too difficult.
Gaston de Clermont

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:04 pm

For that style chair, Master Oakley out of the Midrealm has some plans/instructions on how to make it.

http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/folding_chair.html

------------------
"His troops would follow him anywhere ... but only out of curiousity!"

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:36 pm

Thanks Iain, I hadn't seen Charles' plans for that one. I'm curious about his attribution to it being 16th century, and the site I linked indicating it's 15th century. They're very similar styles, but not actually the same chair- look at the tops and you can see differences in shape.
Gaston

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:20 pm

True ... true. Similar in general shape, but that curve on yours looks like it would be a bit more comfortable. The straight slate would be easier to make, so I would suspect that's why Charles went with that for an instructional document. Not sure about the time period placement.

------------------
"His troops would follow him anywhere ... but only out of curiousity!"

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:25 pm

What about early 13th century chairs? Anyone have any sites for those?

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:29 pm

I was doing some research on ivory carving a few nights ago and found an image of a late 12th century-early 13th century chair. It was very simple, vertical legs, a simple seat, and a low back. It maybe came up to the base of the guy's ribs. I think the example was in "Art of Medieval Spain" and was from a self portrait of an Iberian ivory carver which adorned a casket. Sorry, I really should scan an image like that.

My wife got me Gaston Phoebus' book of the Hunt yesterday. The indroduction speculated that this particular version may have been commissioned in 1407, and contains a few images of seats. One is a big old throne thing, there are a few simple benches, and there are two that look quite a bit like the Savanarola chairs. Pheobus' are more blocky, angular and simple than the Italian design, but the early 15th century image might entice you to copy the design. Darn, another excuse to scan stuff...
Gaston de Clermont

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:11 am

Gaston,

You'd be doing me a HUGE favor by scanning in the images. My period is actually 1403 (actually, today it's January 10, 1403-get it?) So, that could work. I've seen some fald-stools from the 14th century that had straight legs constructed like the Savonarolla, but had no back support.

Back support Good.

I've also seen some curule-style chairs from the period with a huge back. I've been tinkering with the idea of making them break-down into a front piece, a back piece, a seat and some tenoned support pieces...

Jackoftrades · Post by **Jackoftrades** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:15 pm

Trevor,

The folding chair has an Italian cousin dated to the 1400's. The book 'Il Moblilo Forentino' (sp) has pictures, large and in Italian. There is also an TI article from about 10 years ago on that chair.
Mark

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:52 pm

I should be able to get a scanner on Sunday, and should take care of those scans soon. If you don't see any update from me send me a mail reminder.
Colin, from Albion works (who makes very nice furniture) has an interesting theory on back support and chair height. In the 15th century, hose started to be attached with more points than before, and was more closely fitted around the back. You can still perch on the end of a chest, or in a tall seat, but it makes it pretty tough to sit like modern folk tend to without blowing out the points in the back unless your hose is unusually well designed. There are a few images in some editions of Gaston Phoebus' hunting book which show folks running around with these very same point torn out.
I don't think this means people never leaned back, or used low seats, or shunned back support, but they may have valued it less than we do now because the posture was awkward in their clothes. I'm still unsure of the theory, since chairs with backs became more common in the 15th century, precicely when this style of dress was in vogue- though older men tended to wear looser robes, so this wasn't a problem for them.
Gaston de Clermont

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:02 am

I bought a scanner, hooked it up, scanned the chair images, and then got cheap and lazy about where I put them. Ok, it's geocities, so you'll probably need a ? at the end of the url:
http://www.geocities.com/clermont1348/chairs.html
Hope they help.
Gaston de Clermont

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 1:28 am

I forgot to add, the introduction for the edition of Gaston Phoebus's book put the most likely date this version was commissioned to be 1407. Phoebus began dictating the treatise on May 1st 1387, completed it in 1389, and dedicated it to Duke Philippe le Hardi of Burgundy. The author of my edition speculates that Philippe's son, Jean Sans Peur (isn't "The Fearless" a bad ass moniker? That attitude did help him get captured at Nicopolis, but anyway...) commissioned the last two images I've linked around 1407. It was 11 years after Jean was captured, and the debt for his ransom was just getting paid off, so it may have been sort of a "Thanks for bailing me out of a Turkish prison" gift for his dad. (Ok, it wasn't strictly speaking Turkish, but it wasn't a fun place, or cheap to get him out.)
There's a heraldic device on the cover of this edition which has clear and strong Burgundian influence- a colar of the Golden Fleece surround what I think are 15th century Burgundian arms quartered with a strange combo of Leon-Castile, and what's probably Austrian arms. I'm not a big heraldry geek, but I'm a little suspicious of the attribution of the arms to Ferdinand of Austria, and I'm not sure when the page was added. But it adds some credence to the idea that it could have been commissioned by Jean Sans Peur.
Sorry, this was about chairs...
Gaston de Clermont

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:45 am

Thanks!