I'm trying to get together some german garb for mid 16th cenury (give or take a decade or two). I've seen a lot of woodcuts of puffed and slashed things on people's legs, some of them looking very different than others, and I think I have a basic understanding (though that's not to say I know how they'd be made)of what some of them are... like the hosen laced to the bottom of the things that look like boxer shorts, and sort of have an idea what pluderhosen are.
some woodcuts I've seen look like just a pair of knee breeches with vertical slashes that are sewn back together in places. so for this sort of thing, is it appropriate to just take a pair of breeches, measure out where the slashes should go and cut them out? then turn the edges over and sew them so they don't unravel?
if so, is there anything I should know as far as length of the slashes, how high up they go, or was this something that varied so much that almost anything would look okay? (that sounds really bad, but )I haven't done much sewing so I plan on working with an existing pair of breeches if possible.
poofy slashy breeches
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Klaus the Red
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I just finished a Shakespeare production in which my costume consisted of slashed doublet and matching knee-breeches. These were done for me by an SCA garb laurel, and I get to keep 'em for materials cost. Well worth the occasional digression from being a 14th-century kinda guy. The outer material is a synthetic which resembles cream-colored silk brocade, and the slashes were done to show off a red silk lining. The doublet had a further innermost lining of red linen, so the silk was a middle layer. The slashes are about 4" long, and are in regular rows but oriented at a 45-degree angle to vertical. Both the doublet and breeches are slashed pretty much all over. My tailor was fairly confident that the fabric used for the shell would not unravel significantly- at least for the duration of the play- but I plan to eventually hem all the slashes with a gold embroidery floss. (Dozens. Lots of work.)
For knee breeches, don't wear hose but long knee socks. If you're wearing "slops" or poofy pantaloons that only come to mid-thigh, you'll need full hose pointed to your doublet.
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Klaus Rother
Squire to Sir Angus O'Neill, KSCA
Per pale sable and vert, a boar passant or between three hands couped argent
For knee breeches, don't wear hose but long knee socks. If you're wearing "slops" or poofy pantaloons that only come to mid-thigh, you'll need full hose pointed to your doublet.
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Klaus Rother
Squire to Sir Angus O'Neill, KSCA
Per pale sable and vert, a boar passant or between three hands couped argent
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Bob H
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Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion - The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620" would be a big help, if you don't want to buy it you can look at a copy through Interlibrary Loan.
It contains historic art, pictures, deconstructions and comments about artifacts, and scaled drawings of the pieces with comments on construction.
Among the garments are pluderhosen as well as paned slops and venetians, as well as a variety of doublets.
It contains historic art, pictures, deconstructions and comments about artifacts, and scaled drawings of the pieces with comments on construction.
Among the garments are pluderhosen as well as paned slops and venetians, as well as a variety of doublets.
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Pietro da San Tebaldo
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Some of these slashed garments were also made of leather or fulled wool, neither of which unravel or fray from a cut edge.
To full wool, before making it up into a garment, wash it in hot water and dry it on high. This shrinks the fibers together, tightening the fabric. As soon as it's taken from the dry, have a friend help you stretch it back into square, since the edges tend to shrink more than the middle.
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"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce
To full wool, before making it up into a garment, wash it in hot water and dry it on high. This shrinks the fibers together, tightening the fabric. As soon as it's taken from the dry, have a friend help you stretch it back into square, since the edges tend to shrink more than the middle.
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"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce
Landsknecht pants were wool, I suggest using coat wool for this kind of work. The Plunderhosen in Janet Arnolds book may have had leather bits in the panes from what I remember (book is at home) but the outer pane was velvet. Some suggest leather was used for landsknecht hosen by educated guess but I have heard of no known example of slashed landsknecht hosen in leather. Janet Arnold shows a painting with a man wearing what appears to be a leather jacket that is slashed. Now is you feel like using leather for its ease at least use veggie tanned leather and oil based dye, crome (sp) tanned is way wrong and looks way wrong. I am getting ready in the next month to start a landsknecht outfit and I am sticking with wool and linen, the hosen will be all wool.
Flonzy
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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy
Flonzy
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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy
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woodwose
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thanks everyone. I think I might know someone who has Janet Arnolds book that was mentioned. I'll have to take a look at it and see if I can borrow it next time I'm there.
I use to have a pair of leather breeches, but they were the crome tanned stuff that welder's leathers are made from (the sleeves from some rather large welding leathers were converted into a pair of breeches). that crome tanned seemed to rot and easily, or at least more so than the vegtable tanned stuff I've worked with for armor straps and such.
I wasn't sure if it was a good idea but I was eager to try some stuff so a few minutes after posting this I began massacring a pair of cotton knee breeches. being unsure how far up the slashes should go, I measured and marked them out to only go up to the bottom of the crotch. I might do some other sort of slashing above that. I might also sew the strips back together for an inch or so right above the knee. looks kind of like that's what they did in the pictures I saw. but I'll prolly take a look at Janet Arnold's book before doing much else.
I wanted to use wool before, and now I really like the idea of using something that will not unravel. folding over and sewing up the sides of twenty slashes was a lot of work and I think I'm only half done. I want to fold over my folds and sew them so the frayed edges don't show on the inside.
I also ripped apart some old wool pants and am thinking about making some breeches out of them.. I think I've figured out how to chop off the top part where the modern pockets and stuff are and retailor them into a pair of breeches. I also like the idea of using leather
I'm not sure how they will turn out overall, but I'll try to post a picture when I'm done
I use to have a pair of leather breeches, but they were the crome tanned stuff that welder's leathers are made from (the sleeves from some rather large welding leathers were converted into a pair of breeches). that crome tanned seemed to rot and easily, or at least more so than the vegtable tanned stuff I've worked with for armor straps and such.
I wasn't sure if it was a good idea but I was eager to try some stuff so a few minutes after posting this I began massacring a pair of cotton knee breeches. being unsure how far up the slashes should go, I measured and marked them out to only go up to the bottom of the crotch. I might do some other sort of slashing above that. I might also sew the strips back together for an inch or so right above the knee. looks kind of like that's what they did in the pictures I saw. but I'll prolly take a look at Janet Arnold's book before doing much else.
I wanted to use wool before, and now I really like the idea of using something that will not unravel. folding over and sewing up the sides of twenty slashes was a lot of work and I think I'm only half done. I want to fold over my folds and sew them so the frayed edges don't show on the inside.
I also ripped apart some old wool pants and am thinking about making some breeches out of them.. I think I've figured out how to chop off the top part where the modern pockets and stuff are and retailor them into a pair of breeches. I also like the idea of using leather
I'm not sure how they will turn out overall, but I'll try to post a picture when I'm done
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by flonzy:
<B>Landsknecht pants were wool,<snip> Some suggest leather was used for landsknecht hosen by educated guess but I have heard of no known example of slashed landsknecht hosen in leather.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I must respectfully disagree with you, there are extant examples of Landsknecht leather trousers. The Stibbert Museum in Florence has two such garments in its collection (only one is on display at this time) and the Deutsches Ledermuseum/Schuhmuseum has several fragments but no whole garments.
(Contact: Dr. Rosita Nenno
European Collections
DLM-Deutsches Ledermuseum/Schuhmuseum
Tel +49(0)69/82.97.98-14/-0
Fax +49 (0)69/810900
Offenbach Frankfurter Straße 86 D-63067 Offenbach)
I do not know of any extant woolen Landsknecht trousers(I haven't given up searching however). There also exists much in the way of period documentation for leather trouser-Textiler Hausrat Kleidung und Haustextilien in Nurnberg 1500 - 1650
sites a 1531 document of Thoman Beck as listing "3 alte paar lidere Hosen und 3 lidere Wamas. (StaN, LI, fol. 227v-228v)" The author states regarding hosen: "Den Kleiderverzeichnissen zufolge waren
Leder und Wolltuche, seltener Leinen, die gängigen Materialien." (According to the recorded clothing inventories, leather
and wool cloth, and rarely linen, were the common materials.)
Other evidence includes songs-
Der Verlorene Haufen von Pavia
(The Forlone Hope of Pavia)
"Durch Kugelhagen dicht, mit Lodenhosen stram,in Jahre 1525,zog ich in die
Schlacht, zum Ruhmer von Maximilian"
(Through a hail of bullets, with leather trousers tight, in the year 1525, I went into battle, in honor of Maximilians name)
There are also period accounts of leather trousers in letters-
Excerpt of a letter from Michael V Behaim to his cousin and guardian,
Friederich VII Behaim, 1 November 1528-
"I want you to know that the clothes that are now on my back are the clothes I brought with me [from Nuremberg]. Apart from these, I have only a pair of leather trousers and a barchent jacket from my master"
Excerpts from a letter to Friederich VIII Behaim from his Mother,
14 October 1578-
"Since your everyday trousers are so bad, wear these leather holiday trousers for now until a new pair of everyday woolen ones can be made and sent to you..."
"I am sending some cleaning flakes for your leather pants. After you have worn them three times, put some on the knees."
This is from a household accounts book-
"1507 bezahlte die Frau Michael Bahaims 'fur ein liderein hirschen Paar Hosen, meinem Friedrich gein Lyon' einem gulden."
(In 1507 the wife of Michael Behaim paid 1 gulden for a pair of deer leather hose, for my Friedrich going to Lyon)
And there is this pair of Swedish trousers-
http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/press/Modelejon/Bild05.htm
made of knit silk over a leather base(not a true leather garment, but they are cool).
My research lends me to believe that not just wool was used in Landsknecht trousers and aside from leather, you would probably see silks, satins, demasks, velvets, sammat etc. used in various combos. Although I would expect that wool is the most commonly used material.
Tschüss!
Erasmus Augustine vonBaden
Provost, Das Schwartze Fähnlein
"A handful of soldiers is always better than a mouthful of arguments."
-Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
<B>Landsknecht pants were wool,<snip> Some suggest leather was used for landsknecht hosen by educated guess but I have heard of no known example of slashed landsknecht hosen in leather.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I must respectfully disagree with you, there are extant examples of Landsknecht leather trousers. The Stibbert Museum in Florence has two such garments in its collection (only one is on display at this time) and the Deutsches Ledermuseum/Schuhmuseum has several fragments but no whole garments.
(Contact: Dr. Rosita Nenno
European Collections
DLM-Deutsches Ledermuseum/Schuhmuseum
Tel +49(0)69/82.97.98-14/-0
Fax +49 (0)69/810900
Offenbach Frankfurter Straße 86 D-63067 Offenbach)
I do not know of any extant woolen Landsknecht trousers(I haven't given up searching however). There also exists much in the way of period documentation for leather trouser-Textiler Hausrat Kleidung und Haustextilien in Nurnberg 1500 - 1650
sites a 1531 document of Thoman Beck as listing "3 alte paar lidere Hosen und 3 lidere Wamas. (StaN, LI, fol. 227v-228v)" The author states regarding hosen: "Den Kleiderverzeichnissen zufolge waren
Leder und Wolltuche, seltener Leinen, die gängigen Materialien." (According to the recorded clothing inventories, leather
and wool cloth, and rarely linen, were the common materials.)
Other evidence includes songs-
Der Verlorene Haufen von Pavia
(The Forlone Hope of Pavia)
"Durch Kugelhagen dicht, mit Lodenhosen stram,in Jahre 1525,zog ich in die
Schlacht, zum Ruhmer von Maximilian"
(Through a hail of bullets, with leather trousers tight, in the year 1525, I went into battle, in honor of Maximilians name)
There are also period accounts of leather trousers in letters-
Excerpt of a letter from Michael V Behaim to his cousin and guardian,
Friederich VII Behaim, 1 November 1528-
"I want you to know that the clothes that are now on my back are the clothes I brought with me [from Nuremberg]. Apart from these, I have only a pair of leather trousers and a barchent jacket from my master"
Excerpts from a letter to Friederich VIII Behaim from his Mother,
14 October 1578-
"Since your everyday trousers are so bad, wear these leather holiday trousers for now until a new pair of everyday woolen ones can be made and sent to you..."
"I am sending some cleaning flakes for your leather pants. After you have worn them three times, put some on the knees."
This is from a household accounts book-
"1507 bezahlte die Frau Michael Bahaims 'fur ein liderein hirschen Paar Hosen, meinem Friedrich gein Lyon' einem gulden."
(In 1507 the wife of Michael Behaim paid 1 gulden for a pair of deer leather hose, for my Friedrich going to Lyon)
And there is this pair of Swedish trousers-
http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/press/Modelejon/Bild05.htm
made of knit silk over a leather base(not a true leather garment, but they are cool).
My research lends me to believe that not just wool was used in Landsknecht trousers and aside from leather, you would probably see silks, satins, demasks, velvets, sammat etc. used in various combos. Although I would expect that wool is the most commonly used material.
Tschüss!
Erasmus Augustine vonBaden
Provost, Das Schwartze Fähnlein
"A handful of soldiers is always better than a mouthful of arguments."
-Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
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chef de chambre
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Hi Erasmus,
Actually, the only portion of that list that documents landesknechts using them is the verse from "Pavia" - the rest merely documents they existed in the 16th century. A verse in a song is a slender bit of evidence - they migh have chosen leder to ryhme in a verse.
In the "against" column, most of the artwork showing said landesknechts in ragged condition on campaign tends to show the clothing frayed and tattered in the fashion of cloth going to pieces.
Maximilian defending them in the Diet allowed them to wear whatever they wanted, but amongst the commonly mentioned items "beyond their station" that were complained about, leather does not show up.
No doubt given the fact leder hose existed, some landesknechts wore them. That said, a much larger number wear them, -especially in the renaissance fair circuts - than likely wore them in reality, which gives a terrible overall impression if accuracy is being gone for.
It would be like in the case of a 15th century group, documenting the existance of a rare hat, and then everybody in the group insisting on wearing one, or everyone wearing the same armour, or the colour black for all their clothes. Not a knock at you - I haven't seen your kit, and aren't presuming to judge same, just commentary based on dozens upon dozens of landesknecht group photos I have seen.
------------------
Bob R.
Actually, the only portion of that list that documents landesknechts using them is the verse from "Pavia" - the rest merely documents they existed in the 16th century. A verse in a song is a slender bit of evidence - they migh have chosen leder to ryhme in a verse.
In the "against" column, most of the artwork showing said landesknechts in ragged condition on campaign tends to show the clothing frayed and tattered in the fashion of cloth going to pieces.
Maximilian defending them in the Diet allowed them to wear whatever they wanted, but amongst the commonly mentioned items "beyond their station" that were complained about, leather does not show up.
No doubt given the fact leder hose existed, some landesknechts wore them. That said, a much larger number wear them, -especially in the renaissance fair circuts - than likely wore them in reality, which gives a terrible overall impression if accuracy is being gone for.
It would be like in the case of a 15th century group, documenting the existance of a rare hat, and then everybody in the group insisting on wearing one, or everyone wearing the same armour, or the colour black for all their clothes. Not a knock at you - I haven't seen your kit, and aren't presuming to judge same, just commentary based on dozens upon dozens of landesknecht group photos I have seen.
------------------
Bob R.
Erasmus
Thanks for the info. These examples are something new for me. I have never seen the image that you posted, is the whole leg leather or just the area around the butt and groin? Are the 2 in the Stibbert Museum in Florence known to be soldiers pants? I agree that civilians wore leather all the time but I am not convinced that soldiers did.
My major problem with leather soldiers pants is that leather sucks in both cold and hot weather, if I am indoors they are fine, out in the summer sun or the winters chill give me wool. If it's raining I really want wool over leather, chafing sucks.
Thanks
Flonzy
Thanks for the info. These examples are something new for me. I have never seen the image that you posted, is the whole leg leather or just the area around the butt and groin? Are the 2 in the Stibbert Museum in Florence known to be soldiers pants? I agree that civilians wore leather all the time but I am not convinced that soldiers did.
My major problem with leather soldiers pants is that leather sucks in both cold and hot weather, if I am indoors they are fine, out in the summer sun or the winters chill give me wool. If it's raining I really want wool over leather, chafing sucks.
Thanks
Flonzy