Irish Bascinet/Barbute thingy

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:42 pm

Does anyone know where that wierd circa 1380 Irish Bascinet/Barbute thingy is located? It is at A Record of European Armour and Arms Through Seven Centuries. Sir Guy Laking (Fig. 92).
Anyone actually seen it? Laking says it is n the Belfast museum. Would that be the Ulster Museum in Belfast?

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Doug Strong
Sir William Talbot, OL
(The artist formerly know as Talbot Mac Taggart)

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com

Zanetto · Post by **Zanetto** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 5:08 am

Doug,

"Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture", (vol. 1, page 54) says that it was found at Lough Henney in County Down and it is now (1974)in the Ulster Museum in Belfast. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Rob

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:32 am

Hi Talbot,

Assuming it is genuine, I doubt Laking's dating of it as much as I doubt his description of most gothic armour as "French" (he called the A 21 suit French for instance).

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Bob R.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:32 am

Thanks for the help. I suspected it was in the Ulster Museum. Now, Has anyone actually seen it? Anyone have pictures? The date of 1380 is curious, though it is similar to several 14th century ones illustrated in the above mentioned figure sculpture book, so who knows.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:22 am

I've been to the Ulster museum many times and never seen anything like this, hell I even live in county Down and this is the first time I've heard of it! I believe I may make a trip to the museum on saturday I'll get pics for you If you want. Or I can ring and see if it is actually there.

Xander

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:57 am

Xander. That would be really great! Here is the best picture I have of it.

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/Irish1380.jpg

Thank you so much,
Talbot

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 5:01 pm

Yep, that is the critter. 1420 + a few years would be a far better dating for it - barbutes with nasals did not come into existence until then, and that thing is not a bascinet

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Bob R.

medieval misfit · Post by **medieval misfit** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:55 pm

thats what i was thinking.

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mcrs(medieval chivalry reenactment society]

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 8:05 pm

I agree, I have circa 1425 in my book.

Talbot

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:44 am

I'll see what I can do it's an interesting piece anyway.

Xander

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 12:22 pm

Thanks Xander. I really would appreciate it.

By the way, are you aware of ANY transitional armour (roughly 1250-1430) in Ireland? I'm interested even in fragments of plates.

Talbot

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:46 pm

Not much I believe there are a couple of finds well preserved that had been in bogs but I'm not sure of any details If I get to the museum on saturday (which I should be able to) I'll ask there for you.

X

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:43 pm

Anything you an find would be hugely helpful.

Talbot

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:09 am

Can I suggest that the nasal looks suspiciously like a later addition? That may affect the dating . . .

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:04 am

FOUND IT!!!

Lol It's located in the Ulster museum I rang up today and asked about it:

The reason I have never seen it is that it isn't out on display anymore. The medieval curator told me it is probably the best piece of armour found in Ireland, I then asked why it wasn't out on display he pretended not to hear me...

I asked him to put a rough date on it and he laughed! He says some have dated as early as C12 and as late as C15 but a safe bet would be C14 . I asked about the possiblity of the nasal being added later, he told me he wouldn't be able to answer that question as he was not the curator of that piece it was in the Archeology department not the Medieval section.

I also enquired about other forms of armour found In Ireland, it's very slim, he says they have a couple of bits of medieval chainmail and some C17 chainmail.

The curator of that piece is away for a while he will be back on monday week, so I shall ring him then (I got his number) and ask any questions anyone might have to him, I'm gonna try and get him to show me it and then try to get some photos.

Thank you for alerting me about this piece it is quite interesting.

Xander

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:03 am

I've always like that helmet, even if it does scream Warhammer high-elf ;-)

slainte,
Fearghus

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"Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."- Colin Powell

Fearghus' Homepage

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:40 am

Xander, I'd appreciate any info you can get on it. An inventory, accession or catalog number would be useful. Weights, and dimensions would be stellar. Holes for missing parts, liners, etc. would be great.
I want to include it in my book but I will need to know whom to contact at the museum for a photo and rights to reproduce in an educaitonal work. If you can dig that up I would love you for ever.

Talbot

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 11:21 am

Roger that red six. long as you give me a mention in that book

lol, what book you writing?

It will be after Easter before I can get any info for you I'll probably see it on the tuesday just after Easter as I have an Orthodontist appointment down that way on that day.

Xander

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:45 pm

The book on transitional armour is entitled <u> Surviving Examples of Plate Armour 1250-1430</u>
It has been approved by the publisher and contracts are signed. We are hoping to realese in the summer of 2004 but all will depend on getting permissions from museums to publish photos of their pieces without sending us into bankrupsy. We are hoping a photo of each of the nearly 500 survivng pieces I have found. In some cases we would like to publish photos from multiple angles. This could result in 1000 or more photos from 100 different museums.

I will mention you in the acknowledgement section if you send me your real name.

Thanks a bunch,
Talbot

[This message has been edited by Talbot (edited 04-04-2003).]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:46 pm

Hi Xander and Doug,

I understand what the curator told you regarding the helmet - that said, please understand he is not a specialist in the study of armour.

I sincerely doubt that any armour scholar looking at that particular helmet would date it prior to 1410 at the earliest[/i] - there are so many distinct characteristics represented in it that did not occur in armour until the 15th century, that it is [b]highly dubious that it is some chance early prototype.

To name two - the fact it is a 'corinthian' barbute (earliest appearing c. 1420), and the reenforce round the facial opening. A profile view would cinch it, I would wager there is a vestigial tail, and no sign of verveles.

But don't rely on my word - ask a professional armour scholar, David Edge is a very open chap to e-mail, and the Staff of the Royal Armouries are usualy very helpful.

My own take on it is that it is "Western European" in origin - were it in the form of a sallet, I would likely give it a probible English point of origin, but as a barbute, I would label it likely from the Low Countries, given the direct influence of Italian armourers there from the early 15trh century. I would guess that it was imported, and then decorated localy to suit local taste - assuming it is genuine. The form of the reenforc around he nasal and occularum are what makes me possibly question it - it has no parallel in the rest of Western Europe - hence, if it is genuine, the distinctive reenforce is likely a localy made addition.

Doug, compare it to the pointed bowl Corinthisn Barbute, formally displayed with a visor in le Musee l'Armee (probably circa 1440) - there is the paralell for the helmet itself. Le Musee's former curator went about lableing everything eoither German or Italian in the early 70's (for no particular reason based on solid evidence) - it's prior attribution was English, I think it Flemish/Belgian due in part to what I have detailed above - barbutes not being particularly popular in England, given documentary evidence, and artistic evidnce (the only reference so far, John Paston, inquiring of a Flemish armourer to make him one...)

At any rate, Xander, in example, a textile hisorian might be able to tell you every detail about Egyptian linens of the XX Dynasty, but they probably know bupkis about Egyptian weapons of the same era - go to a specialist for a straight answer. I suspect one of the reasons it is not on display is that it is so hotly debated as to origine/authenticity/date, that the Museum does not wish to debate - after all it is the single best piece of armour ever found in Ireland - some museums can get very touchy about exhibits called into question, or what their in-house specialists attributions being called into question.

Just some food for thought guys.

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Bob R.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:06 pm

Hey Chef.
I agree with what you have said. I feel is it significantly later than the 1380 date used by Laking. I used that date in the begining of my post here because that is the only date most people have heard for it. I did not have a picture available for it when I posted so I thought I would have a greater chance of getting a positive respose if people knew to which helmet I was referring. I feel that 1425 or later is the most useful date I can place on it.

I would love to see a profile of it. I have also suspected a rudimentary tail (which would push the date even later) If it is straight sided then it may be as early as 1425 (if it is genuine at all.) The Laking picture is shot from a slightly oblique angle and it appears the sides are dead straight at the bottom.

BTW. I really liked your comments on the Musee helmet on the Firestriker board.

For the purposes of my book even pieces which are forgeries or have bene substantially altered, are worth aquiring information on so they can be, commented on and don't mislead people.

Talbot

[This message has been edited by Talbot (edited 04-04-2003).]

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:11 pm

Oh yes I agree totally but I believe the curator of that piece knows it inside out as it is one of very few armour finds in Ireland it will probably have been studied very closely. I will however take into account what your saying.

Xander

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Apr 06, 2003 5:58 pm

There is an image of a similar helmet on a mounted, mail-clad figure in the "De Burgo Genealogy" of circa 1583 from the west of Ireland (figure 20 in "Wars of the Irish Kings", ed. David McCullugh). I'll be glad to send a scan to those interested.

Given the usual backwardness of Irish arms, I would suspect a date more recent then Chef's earliest estimate. Rather than 14th century, or even 15th century, a 16th century date might not be unresonable.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:18 am

I wouldn't mind seeing that.

Xander

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:26 am

Its confirmed I shall be seeing the Helm tomorrow at 3pm.

Talbot post a list of the questions you want me to ask the curator.

Xander

[This message has been edited by Xander (edited 04-15-2003).]

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:37 am

Here is what I would really liken to know:

1. What is its accession or inventory number?

2. What is the provenance? i.e. where did thy get it? How long have they had it? Where was it before they got it? Where was it found?

3. What date do they assign to it?

4. Weight, Height, Width?

5. Is the nasal integral or applied?

6. VITAL!!! What dies it look like from the profile? Is there a flaired back.?

7. are there any deliberate holes for lining, vervelles or missing parts? Where are these holes?

8. Are there any creases, flutes or ridges in the skull?

9. Can you find any avalaible details about the applied brass occular borders?

10. anything else...

Thanks so much!

Talbot

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:45 am

Well I'm back from seeing it. Amazing is one of the only words I could use to describe it!

To answer your questions:
1) the inventory number has been been painted over or rubbed off but the curator will send it out to me during the week.

2) It was found in Lough Henny co. Down donated to the museum around 1850.

3) for date it is impossible to say accuratly but circa 1400 is the closest guess

4) Sorry forgot to ask these but should get them sent out to me anyway.

5) The nasal is applied I got a good look at it, it is riveted on. I asked and the curator said it was most likely applied at the same time the helm was made an not after.

6) There isn't a flared back I will send the photos to you.

7) As for holes there are some punched in pairs around the bottom probably for an aventail, I think however that this might of been for a strip of leather to be riveted on then maille attached to that afterwards. for lining, there don't seem to be any holes but there is a tiny brass plate on one side inside the helm, it probably would have been on the other side as well, but it has corroded away.

there is no fluting or creases but the strange thing is it looks like it has been made from two parts but there are no rivets holding it together, looks like two parts have been "forged" together.

9) The brass runs around the edge of the eyes and also down the nose slightly then it curves upwards like a hook. It is riveted at the sides and in the middle onto the nasal.

10) probably from England or the contenient I guess Italy. It isn't out on display because the museum does not have a medieval section at the moment.

Also at the museum were some parts of Chainmail, quite a large piece I seen was made from tiny links like maybe only 4mm across, it was butted maille large enough to be part of a shirt.

Other mail was rivetted and welded with round rivets, like indian maille I also seen a tiny portion of wedge rivetted maille, the rest were all round rivets some welded other sections were as large as 10mm across.

Also plenty of axe heads and 2 swords.

I have pictures if any one wants some leave an email address.

Xander

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:00 pm

Xander, you are the best!
Please send pictures to dougstrong@aol.com

Can I get the name of the curator so I may write to him for permission to publish?

Thanks so much!
Talbot

Robert Clark Carruth · Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:29 pm

I'd like to see pics, please!

robert_carruth@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Robert

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:48 pm

Xander,

I sent several scans to you, including the Jerpoint sculpture and the De Burgo miniature. In other interesting finds, I've found a miniature from a late 14th century Paduan Bible showing a profile view of a rear-point bascinet with developing barbute-like cheek guards and a nasal. The Jerpoint sculpture has been wildly dated from the 12th century to c.1400, but the Abbey was rebuilt in the early 15th century, so tradional barbute dates may apply. Also, those of you with a copy of Nicolle's 'Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era' may wish to examine figure 283 for comparison. I still have serious doubts that this is pre-1400, but dating Irish arms seems particularly challenging to all.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:15 pm

Hi All,

The holes round the bottom are most likely a continuation of the lining holes seen in the photograph originaly posted by Doug, else there would be no provisions for a liner by the description - vervele holes and liner holes are not carried on the same line on normal bascinets.

The thing is definitely a barbute (there are several in Brescia and one in the Wallace with straignt sides - being straight sided just dates it on the early side of the helmet type - pre 1440 for a fact), but I still doubt an atribution as early as 1400, given the smallness of the occularum - very early barbutes have vestigial cheeks, as Ernst has described - these can be seen in very late 14th century art. The few Italian ones extant that are open, wioth vestigial cheeks are much more shapely.

Even if this is as early as 1420, it would make it the earliest extant example of a corinthian barbute to my knowledge. There is no way with that kind of high point (and apparently fairly straight back) that that is the product of an Italian workshop - the closest parallel would be those great bascinets found on Chalsis, and even they are more shapely - were it a bascinet, no one would question a Northern European attribution, and I think the curator has this dead-right that it is either English or Continental product, and very early for this sort of helmet.

Keep me posted as well, as if this is genuine, I'll be using it in one of my papers.

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Bob R.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:50 pm

Pictures sent.

Xander