klappvisors

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:19 pm

Was the klappvisor solely a German thing, or is there any evidence it was used in other countries during the 14th century?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:43 pm

I've seen them represented in Italian art for example:

Niccolo di Giacomo da Bologna's "Emporer in Battl" from "Farsalia" 1354
Milan Biblioteca Trivulziana, Ms 691,fol 87

as well as a couple of paintings of the crucifiction shown in Boccia's "Armi e Armature Lombarde" One dated to 1370 and the other a bit later

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:50 pm

Thanks, Cet.

Anybody else--any other countries or regions? For instance, is there any evidence they made it to France or Spain during the late 14th?

[This message has been edited by Madyn (edited 01-24-2004).]

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:06 am

I think the Spanish and French generally used the side pivoting types. The klappvisor was only really common in the Germanic and north Italian areas, as well as possibly the Scandinavian countries. Not sure about southern Italy. In the low countries they seemed to use both.

Erik

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:44 am

English used em

Madyn · Post by **Madyn** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
English used em<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you (or anyone) happen to know of sources/documentation for that? Not that I doubt you, but I'm just trying to track them down via manuscripts/effigies/extant copies/whatever.

Thanks!

James of York · Post by **James of York** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:44 pm

Ahhh Madyn, seems that have the same question as I do. The only thing that I found on some boards was that the English did wear a pigfaced visor(hounskull) but I cant find anywhere that they actually wore a klappvisier. The Klappvisier was used in Western Europe but mainly in Germany.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge could enlighten us. I would hate to have to change my personna.

------------------
Yours in service,
James of York
Shire of Tir Briste
Kingdom of Meridies

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:03 am

Got a pic of amonumental brass of Thomas Beauchamp earl of Warwick from 1348 in Elsing Church.
Klapvisor style, though side mounted.

Got a french pic from a manuscript of the english attackng a town at least 1 klapp on a Brit and 1 on a Froggie.

Most of the Brits seem to be opent faced in other pics.

Course i only have the one book here at work.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
Got a pic of amonumental brass of Thomas Beauchamp earl of Warwick from 1348 in Elsing Church.
Klapvisor style, though side mounted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Murdock, a klappvisier refers to a specific kind of visor that was small, of a fairly shallow form and mounted centrally to the brow. There is no such thing as a side mounted kalppvisier, although some do extned the term to include the deeper hounskull forms.
The mounting of the visor centrally at the brow area is the main distinguishing feature of the term klappvisier, although it is seperated from the breteche by the difference in size.

Got a reference for the French manuscript illustration? (if it's a real klapp that is, and not a side mounted one again)

Erik

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:41 am

OOOooooooohhhhhhhhh
I thought it was any of the shallower kinda ape faced visors.

I see several depictions of very similar nearly flart visors that are side mounted
from around Crecy. One looks completly flat.

They basically look like a klapp but not center mounted.

What are they?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:48 am

Interesting.

I was always under the impression that a "klappvisor" referred to bascinet visors with a central hinge rather than the side pieces. (Granted that all the klapps I've seen were round-faced, but...)

Doh.

Effingham

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Effingham:
Interesting.
I was always under the impression that a "klappvisor" referred to bascinet visors with a central hinge rather than the side pieces. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that's what I just said above, Effingham [img]http://forums.armourarchive.org/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Murdoch, I don't know if there is a specific term for the flat side hinged visors. I don't recall seeing one anyway.
I tend to call the flatter ones globose visors, given most were somewhat convex over the nose and mouth area. So they would be a side mounted globose visor.

Erik

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:31 am

If you're willing to accept Osprey as useful, there seem to be two kinds of klappvisors, the ogival, or round nose klappvisor, which seems to be all the rage these days, and with good reason, and the hundskull, which is a, well, I don't know any other way to describe it but to say it looks like a cross between an ogival klappvisor, and the English pignose visors of the late 14th century. It looks very germanic, to my eyes. Alien.

Jehan

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:11 am

Jehan, the term "pignose" and "hounskull" refer to the same thing.
As I stated in one of the replies above "...some do extend the term(klappvisier) to include the deeper hounskull forms." So yes, there can be two types of klappvisier, depending on how stringent the definition.

There are quite a number of surviving examples of both klappvisier and side mounted forms of the hounskull/pigface visor, and they vary in form quite independantly of what kind of mounting they have.

I would love to know which example you are using as your "type specimen" for the hounskull.

Erik

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:12 pm

[quote]I believe that's what I just said above, Effingham [/qoute]

Well, not quite. You said "a klappvisier refers to a specific kind of visor that was small, of a fairly shallow form and mounted centrally to the brow. There is no such thing as a side mounted kalppvisier, although some do extned the term to include the deeper hounskull forms."

I was saying that I always thought the distinguishing mark was the central mount, not the shape... but that I was starting to rethink. Or at least, that's what I thought I was saying.

It seemed to me that you were saying that both were requirements. Heck, I'm open to confusion.

[img]http://forums.armourarchive.org/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Effingham

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:27 pm

ES: Jehan, the term "pignose" and "hounskull" refer to the same thing. As I stated in one of the replies above "...some do extend the term(klappvisier) to include the deeper hounskull forms." So yes, there can be two types of klappvisier, depending on how stringent the definition."

JdP: Okay, good. So the name refers to both the germanic and the english styles. I was wondering whether the two had different names.

ES: "I would love to know which example you are using as your "type specimen" for the hounskull."

JdP: When I get home I'll find the photo and scan it. It is cited as an English-owned example of the germanic type.

Jehan de Pelham

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Effingham:
I was saying that I always thought the distinguishing mark was the central mount, not the shape... but that I was starting to rethink. Or at least, that's what I thought I was saying.

It seemed to me that you were saying that both were requirements. Heck, I'm open to confusion.
Effingham[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, it's can be easy to misunderstand sometimes.
Whatever you do, don't rethink. All centrally mounted visors are usually referred to as klappvisiers, but it's just that some, it seems from reading the German literature, confine the term to the globose visors only.

Jehan, you are probably referrig then to either IV.467 or IV.6. The former has a blunted snout and a slightly pointed, egg-shaped skull with tube vervelles and trangular deflectors. The latter has a very pointed snout and is attached to a skull with a rounded apex near the back, a straight lower edge and closely spaced holes for vervelles(now missing).

Erik

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:06 am

I think the best way to figure this out is the German meaning of Klapp=Folding ie the way the visor closes. I dont think Klapp would appy to the side mounted style. But let me ask my wife for a more detailed meaning of how Klapp is used.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:38 pm

Klappe = flap
Klappen = to bang or to turn something up or down
Klapper(n) = rattle or clatter
Klapp = folding
The German language can only tell us so much, it can't tell us when the term was first applied, to what kind of flap, clattering or folding device it was applied or if the original term is applied the same way now as when it was first used.

What I can tell you is that in modern armour language it is not applied to side mounted visors. NEVER!

Erik

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:00 pm

Also used in Hungary.

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Russ Mitchell:
Also used in Hungary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent! That's one place I have had trouble finding much information, due to the language barrier.
What reference do you have for it from there?

Erik