Sallets - acceptability of product for LH

[James B.]

Stephen

Your items are then misrepresented, I suggest putting up proper images.

I commented on the helms in the picture because I HAVE seen them upclose before. If your product is different then you need images of YOUR product.

[chef de chambre]

They are articulated tails, are they not? And they are attatched to helmets. I don't see how they could possibly be not relevant, and I am quite sure that I would not be in a minority regarding this were you to poll the community more professionaly educated in the subject.

I never said they were irrelevant, I said "while they may be an earlier stage of developement of the segmented tail they certainly aren't really IMO what has been discussed"

My mistake then.

Those in the images are tails that hang down, the helmets in questions have tails that are integrated into the shape of the tail. They are not the same thing. While those images may be a predecessor to them, they are not examples of integrated segmented tails before 1475.

I do not think the second image is large enough, nor clearly defined enough by the artist to determine this decisivley one way or the other. Regardless, the tail continues off the bowl, rather than being an afterthought like the example on the barbute, or an added defence as in the kettlehat.

I think the point is moot - clearly the Italians produced single lame articulated tails for sallets, meeting your definition of what is a proper tail, by mid 15th century.

My point is (and was) that Wolf (and the rest of us) should not be so quick to definitively state "No items of this form existed prior to X firm date", especially just because we haven't seen an example in our experience.

I would hope the images produced would be an object lesson to not be so quick to make definitive statements.

Brent

[Wolf]

a big to you chef ehhehehe

[Cassius the Rabbit]

Patrick Thaden has a LH quality Sallet for sale now and I believe that it is on his website. I am not sure of the price but it was very reasonable. He is Armor Bob on the archive.

[Michael B]

Stephen,

Thanks for your reply. Perhaps I should have copied you in on my original post. However, I value the opinion of the persons on this board who pursue 15th C military impressions, and their dedication to quality and accuracy in portraying a period about which I am only beginning to learn. As you suggest, a third party opinion is always valued, and you could certainly do worse than speaking with or bouncing ideas off the people here! (If they're willing to contribute - they certainly have an opinion (or more) on most things ...)

I will continue to watch your site with interest, and as we have discussed previously, I am particularly interested in your developments with rivetted mail.

Kind regards
Michael B

[chef de chambre]

a big to you chef ehhehehe

I'm not sure what " " is about - I just thought of a few examples off the top of my head, I haven't done any in-depth search since the question came up. You do realise that certain Italian sallets of the era had single lame articulated tails, don't you?

If you want to get technical, if an English impression for the 'wars of the roses' is what is desired, then German armour as a general rule is 'right out', since it was not widely distributed across Europe (barring the Scandanavian states, and portions of Hungary and Bohemia) prior to the end of the conflicts in question, and there is little evidence any of it was imported to England during the time in question. The reenactor is better off using Italian export (the bulk), Flemish, or locally manufactured armour (if we can ever precisely determine the form of that, and how much of what sort of armour was manufactured locally).

If you want to portray an Englishman (in England) of the era, then you should be looking at English sources and artwork for inspiration for kit - not German, French, or the omnipresent Flemish art

[Michael B]

As a follow up to my earlier query (which engendered some interesting discussions), how do the sallets on this page:

http://www.bestarmour.com/salir1.htm

look for LH, or are the prices too good to be true?

Again:

- I'm not particularly concerned about the gauge, as I'm unlikely to use a helm for combat at this point.

- I'm looking at a mounted archer impression, hopefully of a fairly neutral Western Europe (ie. west of Germany) circa 1475 look.

Thanks
Michael

[Jiri Lucius.]

Brent

I misunderstood your post, I thought that was a Valentine helm not one of the imports, my bad.

Chef I see where your going there is just something scary about those Indian helms, I wouldn't trust then for reenactment combat. I have a bestarmour helm that is far from perfect but it feels like a real helm to me and the India helms feel like a kids toy, but that just me

Hi,

what is wrong with the helmet from bestarmour?

Jiri

[Wolf]

SS 1.2 on that page, (this is what james b has)
SS 2.1 for english style in the 1460s i believe
SS 2.5 really nice one. i love this helm. jeffj has one and its great

[Jeff J]

As a follow up to my earlier query (which engendered some interesting discussions), how do the sallets on this page:

http://www.bestarmour.com/salir1.htm

look for LH, or are the prices too good to be true?

Again:

- I'm not particularly concerned about the gauge, as I'm unlikely to use a helm for combat at this point.

- I'm looking at a mounted archer impression, hopefully of a fairly neutral Western Europe (ie. west of Germany) circa 1475 look.

Thanks
Michael

I have 3 of their helms (primarily as loaners for our group) SS 1.2 for late 14th C archer, SS1.5 and SS2.5 for 15th C.

Purists would note that the skulls are welded from two halves and that the steel is mild and might dent. For general reenacting, though, they are a great deal. Many in our group use them, as do some of Chef's. The workmanship and finish are good, but we do change out the buckles and replace the leather suspension liner with a padded linen one.

When ordering, be precise about your measurements and keep the discussion simple, as they don't speak English very well.

[Jiri Lucius.]

As a follow up to my earlier query (which engendered some interesting discussions), how do the sallets on this page:

http://www.bestarmour.com/salir1.htm

look for LH, or are the prices too good to be true?

Again:

- I'm not particularly concerned about the gauge, as I'm unlikely to use a helm for combat at this point.

- I'm looking at a mounted archer impression, hopefully of a fairly neutral Western Europe (ie. west of Germany) circa 1475 look.

Thanks
Michael

I have 3 of their helms (primarily as loaners for our group) SS 1.2 for late 14th C archer, SS1.5 and SS2.5 for 15th C.

Purists would note that the skulls are welded from two halves and that the steel is mild and might dent. For general reenacting, though, they are a great deal. Many in our group use them, as do some of Chef's. The workmanship and finish are good, but we do change out the buckles and replace the leather suspension liner with a padded linen one.

When ordering, be precise about your measurements and keep the discussion simple, as they don't speak English very well.

Yes they do a lot of welding on their products. But most of the welds are done in such way that you will not see it. The buckles could be better for sure, same with the leather lining. It is to hard for the head and is not very comfortable. I will tell then next time I see them.
Well about the english it is true, need improvement for sure.
Just in case you need help with some special stuff just let me know and I will help them.

Jiri

[Jeff J]

Yes they do a lot of welding on their products. But most of the welds are done in such way that you will not see it. The buckles could be better for sure, same with the leather lining. It is to hard for the head and is not very comfortable. I will tell then next time I see them.
Well about the english it is true, need improvement for sure.
Just in case you need help with some special stuff just let me know and I will help them.

Jiri

I don't have any issue with the welds - as you say, they are hard to see. To not have welds, you would have to have the skull raised from a single piece and I can't see anyone doing that well without it costing a whole lot of money. The welds are generally smooth and well-ground out anywhere that they might be readily visible. And inside the helmet where they might be noticable, they put a coat of black paint and the inside is usually covered by a liner.

For the liner, a quilted linen suspension liner, about 6-8mm thick, made in 4 wedges can easily be stiched to the existing liner band.

In spite of language that was a bit awkward, they were good to deal with and everyhing arrived on-time and in good shape.

I like the Bestarmor helms much more than the Indian-made helms previously discussed in this thread.

[Jiri Lucius.]

I don't have any issue with the welds - as you say, they are hard to see. To not have welds, you would have to have the skull raised from a single piece and I can't see anyone doing that well without it costing a whole lot of money. The welds are generally smooth and well-ground out anywhere that they might be readily visible. And inside the helmet where they might be noticable, they put a coat of black paint and the inside is usually covered by a liner.

For the liner, a quilted linen suspension liner, about 6-8mm thick, made in 4 wedges can easily be stiched to the existing liner band.

In spite of language that was a bit awkward, they were good to deal with and everyhing arrived on-time and in good shape.

I like the Bestarmor helms much more than the Indian-made helms previously discussed in this thread.

Nice to hear

Jiri

[Michael B]

SS 1.2 on that page, (this is what james b has)
SS 2.1 for english style in the 1460s i believe
SS 2.5 really nice one. i love this helm. jeffj has one and its great

Woah! I was having trouble trying to work out why you were referring to 2.1 and 2.5 until I went back to the helmet menu and realized there were four more pages of sallets!

Generally, this stuff is more within my present budget range, given birth of son, expansion of mortgage, and not being sure just how far I want to take the 15thC side of things.

it's all very new to me, having spent the past 10 years + concentrating on 10th-12th C portrayals (and occasionally drooling over my copy of The Medieval Soldier ... ooooh, shiney and documentable ...). So I would be guessing as to helms, and now it looks like I might be spoilt for choice.

What about:

3.3?
4.2?

I take it that a visor does not necessarily rule out use for an archer impression?

The obvious answer to all of this would be to research the period before getting carried away with buying and making things ... But I'd like to think that with sufficient care, each aspect strongly supports the other if pursued simultaneously - particularly with helpful people like you around!

Thanks
Michael B

[Wolf]

3.3 i think it later in the 15th, cant remmeber... email Chef


4.2 not too bad