The Armour Archive

Posted: **Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:56 pm**

Do any of the three sallets on this page:

http://www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk/helmets.htm

... appear suitable for LH, or are the prices too good to be true?

I am not particularly concerned about the gauge, as I'm unlikely to use a helm for combat at this point.

I'm looking at a mounted archer impression, hopefully of a fairly neutral Western Europe (ie. west of Germany) circa 1475 look.

Thanks
Michael

PS. I just received a sample of flat rivetted mail from this company - quite nice. I am presently waiting for an opportunity to compare to the quality of other manufacturers, as I know of a few local rivetted hauberk owners.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:29 am**

Took a look, and it appears that all three are Deepeeka products. fit and finsh can vary wildy.

I would hesitate to call them fit for LH...

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:32 am**

Michael B wrote:Do any of the three sallets on this page:

http://www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk/helmets.htm

... appear suitable for LH, or are the prices too good to be true?

I am not particularly concerned about the gauge, as I'm unlikely to use a helm for combat at this point.

I'm looking at a mounted archer impression, hopefully of a fairly neutral Western Europe (ie. west of Germany) circa 1475 look.

Thanks
Michael

Hi Michael,

Am still waiting for the page to download on a crappy connection. If the sallets *are* Depeeka, perhaps the primary concern should be 1. can I make a comparison to a real sallet? rather than the exact source of the helmet.

The page has downloaded - the firast sallet is a very mediocre reproduction of a very late German sallet used in a specialised tilt. The second one on the page is just awful. The third one is not bad, but it really isn't suitable for a mounted archer using a self bow (the visor will interefere with drawing, even when raised.

There are a few products made by some of the Indian companies that are quite useable - not in the condition in which they arrive, but with a little work they can be used (taking off external marks of machine manufacture, altering the surface from bright chrome to a more subdued, or even black one, and putting in a historical liner).

Not every hat produced in the 15th century was a masterpiece - everyone wants the Sigismund sallet, but for every hat like that there were dozens if not hundreds of helmets of so -so to truely awful looks and proportions.

PS. I just received a sample of flat rivetted mail from this company - quite nice. I am presently waiting for an opportunity to compare to the quality of other manufacturers, as I know of a few local rivetted hauberk owners.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:39 am**

Code HM 1039-D german sallet 2 is the closest thing they have. but its still way off for 1475. look for one without the lobster tail

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:28 am**

They are not even depeeka they are some other knock off India company. I have seen most of these helms up close and they are truly fugly. I would not buy one myself.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:55 pm**

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:26 pm**

Peder have you seen those Depeekas (those first 4 helms) up close? Winterfell has one and the workmanship is not that great. The rivet heads holding on the visors are junk, the metal working is not that great, the tails and bulb part of the head have cresses.

Personally I would never own any of those India made helms, the workmanship is just not there.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:49 pm**

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:24 pm**

James B. wrote:Peder have you seen those Depeekas (those first 4 helms) up close? Winterfell has one and the workmanship is not that great. The rivet heads holding on the visors are junk, the metal working is not that great, the tails and bulb part of the head have cresses.

Personally I would never own any of those India made helms, the workmanship is just not there.

Hi James,

I don't know if you have gotten the jist of what I wrote in response to Michael. Take a good look at many extant sallets that were not made for a great lord - many of them we would consider to be of atrocious workmanship. In some ways, some of the better quality Indian sallets are much more true to original munitions quality harness than what is produced commonly for the living history community. (You should see some of the asymmetry in Italian armets, and some of the crudity in their workmanship - helmets clearly intended for mounted men at arms, therefore people of some means). I would say one of the worst sins of Indian made sallets is the glossy shine put on them, were they left black from the forge, *some* of them would be pretty convincing.

Asymmetry, flaws in workmanship, crudity, these are all hallmarks of items worn by the *common* soldiers in the era we portray - there are many cheap munition grade sallets in existance - not many are seen or are out displayed in public collections, because we all have a desire to see the high quality items that are the centerpiece of displays in what (in America) ammount to fine art museums, rather than museums dedicated to the actual history of the technology

Frankly, we all want nice stuff - the problem is we often want reproduction items that are not in keeping with the station of the portrayal the reenactor is shooting for. I keep writing and saying there should be a distinct visual difference, noticable to an average audience between people portraying the different estates. The reality is that in the community, we tend not to show such a distinction, because we all want the gear fitted to a gentleman, even if we obstensibly aren't portraying one.

As an aside to Wolf -

This is the second time you have posted concerning articulated tails on sallets, saying it is 'too late' for the portrayal - Frankly, while German sallets do gain artiiculated tails late in the century, I do not know that we can definitively state 'therefore, no articulated tails existed'. Actually, it would seem that at least single lame articulated tails occur on cheap Italian munition grade infantry sallets by mid 15th century. They are commonly depicted on ceveliers, kettlehats (yes, deep kettlehats), and barbutes of the 1460's (see the Rene of Anjou miniatures of the Melee, for a number being worn by mounted and dismounted valets, as well as the Ceasar tapestries). I think your assertion that such things did not exist in the mid 15th century is likely to be incorrect.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:18 pm**

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I suspected that there might be some problems, given some of the other helms on the page (no offence intended to the vendor - each person targets their own market - and I am very much looking forward to seeing the round section rivetted mail he suggested might be in the pipeline (on another thread)).

I am unable to view the "By the Sword" catalogue pictures - the catalogue listings come up, but each picture is just the dreaded red cross, and clicking on them just brings up my firm's "Access Denied! Organizational policies prohibit access to this web page. A security team is on its way. Please clear out your desk" message.

Armour p0rn?

Cheers
Michael B

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:21 pm**

Hi Michael,

Have a look here http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/1100-150 ... w_442.html, they actually discuss the company and get feedback from the guy who runs it......

Hope this helps,

Caithlinn

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:35 pm**

I started dealing with Deepeeka directly last year, and got a chance to see a lot of thier stuff up close in their American Warehouse.
The gothic suit had a lot of problems with it, which I explained to them and why and what was more accurate and why. They took notes the entire time. A couple of months ago I went back to their warehouse and saw thier new gothic suit, they fixed every issue I brought up. I picked up one and have since been reworking it to wear, since it is originally strapped and riveted for display. They are using spring steel for at least the full suits, I don't know about some of the other pieces though.
Chef is also correct about the variations in pieces. I saw three Italian Sallets and chose the one with the closest fitted visor. Again yes it requires work, but hey you get a better understanding of what you are wearing, if you have to fiddle with it.
However the bright shine that you see is for comercial pictures, they are rarely that polished, but again this is something that you can fix.
Here are some pics of the pieces that I have from them:
This is the sallet that James hates:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... allet1.JPG
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... allet2.JPG
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... allet3.JPG
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... allet4.JPG

And this is the harness:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... tplate.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... kplate.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... r/arm1.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... r/leg1.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... r/leg2.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... r/leg3.jpg

Is it perfect? Nope. Is it wearable? Yup.
Is it accurate? Probably not 100% and would definetly not be worn by a king, but they are putting sliding rivets in the correct spots and the weight and range of motion is pretty damn good.
As an example I wore the gothic legs to an SCA fighter practice tonight and they worked great.
So all in all the choice is up the individual. There are some who think that all armour and materials used by LH should be masterpiece level and their are some who are a bit more realistic.

Posted: **Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:50 pm**

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:55 am**

Peder wrote:The best sallets I've seen some out of India are the ones that by the sword is currently offering. the first bunch

http://www.bytheswordinc.com/acatalog/1 ... Helms.html

So, Caithlinn has kindly emailed me the pictures from By the Sword. Any recommendations for the portrayal suggested, or are the visors all too much? I'd be looking at "weathering" it a little.

Any alternative illustrations of an appropriate type so I can see if I can get a local armourer to quote?

Thanks
Michael B

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:27 am**

Hi Michael,

Probably any one of those five would be useable. The first and fifth are more on the order of what the common soldier wore, and the fifth will definitely enable you to draw a bow without interference. If Peder could try on his (#1), and see if he can pull a bow wearing it, he could clear up the issue.

Definitely much less polished - had I either # 1 or 5, I would see if a friend might black them in a forge.

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:19 am**

[quote="chef de chambre
As an aside to Wolf -

This is the second time you have posted concerning articulated tails on sallets, saying it is 'too late' for the portrayal - Frankly, while German sallets do gain artiiculated tails late in the century, I do not know that we can definitively state 'therefore, no articulated tails existed'. Actually, it would seem that at least single lame articulated tails occur on cheap Italian munition grade infantry sallets by mid 15th century. They are commonly depicted on ceveliers, kettlehats (yes, deep kettlehats), and barbutes of the 1460's (see the Rene of Anjou miniatures of the Melee, for a number being worn by mounted and dismounted valets, as well as the Ceasar tapestries). I think your assertion that such things did not exist in the mid 15th century is likely to be incorrect.[/quote]

hi chef, i think my assumption is because i have never seen a german sallet in the wotr time frame with a articulating tail. now, please prove me wrong

i'm always willing to look at paitnings, pictures etc. you know i'm one of the biggest armour whores there is hehehe. the king rene book online that i've veiwed doesnt have pictures. and the frosiet(sp way wrong) most have that deep tail curve of an itailian export.

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:26 am**

Michael B wrote:
Peder wrote:The best sallets I've seen some out of India are the ones that by the sword is currently offering. the first bunch

http://www.bytheswordinc.com/acatalog/1 ... Helms.html

So, Caithlinn has kindly emailed me the pictures from By the Sword. Any recommendations for the portrayal suggested, or are the visors all too much? I'd be looking at "weathering" it a little.

Any alternative illustrations of an appropriate type so I can see if I can get a local armourer to quote?

Thanks
Michael B

michael,

of the helms listed, i like #300148 better than tha others. dunno why. it seems mrl stopped making their itailian export helm (what i have), being that it most resembled any historical export. why do they always do that hehehe. OOPS it almost looks correct, we better get rid of it and get a piece of fantasy shit

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:26 am**

Brent

I misunderstood your post, I thought that was a Valentine helm not one of the imports, my bad.

Chef I see where your going there is just something scary about those Indian helms, I wouldn't trust then for reenactment combat. I have a bestarmour helm that is far from perfect but it feels like a real helm to me and the India helms feel like a kids toy, but that just me

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:46 am**

It's not shoddy workmanship that's an issue, it's configurations that look modern. Things liks symetrical skulls that transition to straight brims that make it look welded on. And then it's high-polished. :roll:

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:58 pm**

don't go there...
you need something to be proud of

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:36 pm**

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm**

It is not that head shots are legal or not, it is just an added safety issue for just in cases, since the head is not intentionaly targeted.
Now then given the overall strength, cost and form of the Deepeeka helms, with a proper liner they would hold up ok with blunt steel. Poleaxes on the other hand.... :shock:

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:16 pm**

Wolf wrote:[quote="chef de chambre
As an aside to Wolf -

This is the second time you have posted concerning articulated tails on sallets, saying it is 'too late' for the portrayal - Frankly, while German sallets do gain artiiculated tails late in the century, I do not know that we can definitively state 'therefore, no articulated tails existed'. Actually, it would seem that at least single lame articulated tails occur on cheap Italian munition grade infantry sallets by mid 15th century. They are commonly depicted on ceveliers, kettlehats (yes, deep kettlehats), and barbutes of the 1460's (see the Rene of Anjou miniatures of the Melee, for a number being worn by mounted and dismounted valets, as well as the Ceasar tapestries). I think your assertion that such things did not exist in the mid 15th century is likely to be incorrect.

hi chef, i think my assumption is because i have never seen a german sallet in the wotr time frame with a articulating tail.[/quote]

That is a poor asumption to make. Are you saying that you have seen all the available iconographic and documentary evidence that is extant? I know I have not. Neither you nor I were present during that time, so our 'seeing' it in the WoR period is rather a moot point

now, please prove me wrong

I already have, by providing you with specific details easily seen in commonly available artwork, often printed, and familiar to both amature armour enthusiasts as well as scholars. Next time you see Jeff J., see if he has any of the pictures of the melee scenes painted in Rene's work - I know Barber and Barkers "Tournament" has them, as well as a number of general medieval coffee table books. I never specified that 'German' sallets had articulating tails in the 1470's (in point of fact, I said they developed them 'late' ) , I pointed out extant Italian examples, and Northern European artwork depicting other helmet types often seen with articulating tails.

i'm always willing to look at paitnings, pictures etc. you know i'm one of the biggest armour whores there is hehehe. the king rene book online that i've veiwed doesnt have pictures. and the frosiet(sp way wrong) most have that deep tail curve of an itailian export.

What is available to view on the internet hardly covers the entirety of extant information. I don't have a reliable scanner, to pop up pictures at whim and request to post on the internet. As an armour enthusiast, I would encourage you to expand your paper collection of Medieval artwork and armour catalogs - it will only help increase your knowledge and ground you in the subject more fully. Additionally armed, we can engage in much more interesting discussions and debates of the subject - preferably at a 15th century event, when you are able to attend one with your Codnor comerades.

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:34 pm**

Additionally armed, we can engage in much more interesting discussions and debates of the subject - preferably at a 15th century event, when you are able to attend one with your Codnor comerades.

you got it bud. sorry, i didnt notice the "italian" bit in your post. my mistake. cant wait till we get to hang out again!

Posted: **Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:51 pm**

Is this helmet one of the Italian syles with an articulated tail like those that you were talking about Chef? I have no clue as to the time period this is from, except that it is from the mid to late 15th century.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/late15th/MI07989f09b

Hope this helps,

Posted: **Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:03 am**

Posted: **Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:41 am**

Peder wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:
Wolf wrote:[quote="chef de chambre
As an aside to Wolf -

if he has any of the pictures of the melee scenes painted in Rene's work - I know Barber and Barkers "Tournament" has them, as well as a number of general medieval coffee table books.

I'm not seeing any in there. Can you give me the specific location of one so I can scan it. I see a few segmented back the neck guards but I don't think that is what we are talking about.

Brent

It surely is what I am talking about though - an articulated tail attatched to a helmet would qualify as an articulated tail.

In the first quarter of the melee as it is spilling out of the lists, there is a mounted valet with a faceted deep helmet, with a articulated tail (right under the box of the Duke of Brittany), on foot at the list wall is a foot valet wearing a cevellier with an articulated tail - this is clearly, indisputably attatched to the helmet from the way he is standing, and the way the tail hangs. Amongst the mounted banners being carried away (next to the trumpeter with the arms of Brittany on the right of the viewer, is a kettlehat with a faceted or fluted surface, and a dependant tail.

There are a number of sketches from original sources in the Dragon online, which show some examples from Franco/Flemish tapestries, ranging from leather straps with buckles (which I agree are not tails, and might not even necessarily be for defence), to fullblown articulated tails.

My point is that we do not know enough regarding the subject to decisively state things such as precisely when articulated tails appear on helmets in Northern Europe. If we go by nothing but extant examples (many of which have been tinkered with during their working life, and altered afterward by collectors and museums in the Dark Ages of armour collection seeking to 'make it appear as it should) without considering the evidence of good quality artwork, then we limit ourselves drastically, and assume a rigidity of forms which likely did not exist during the era in question. A great example is the sugarloaf greathelm, apparently one of the most popular helmet forms of the late 13th century, of which not a single example is extant, or the visored greathelm, which is documented in art, and inventories, without a single surviving example.

It would be fantastic if you could scan those examples, so as to show Wolf and the readers what I am talking about.

Posted: **Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:49 pm**

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:23 am**

Jason Grimes wrote:Is this helmet one of the Italian syles with an articulated tail like those that you were talking about Chef? I have no clue as to the time period this is from, except that it is from the mid to late 15th century.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/gallery/late15th/MI07989f09b

Hope this helps,

Yes Jason,

That is precisely what I was describing as a munition infantry helmet with a single lame articulation. They begin to appear in mid century, as you examine extant specemins (The Higgins has a couple) they are very crude things, intended to be quickly hammered out - the bowls have a rough cut edge - sometines irregular, and the reenforce and lame were intended to finish the edge. My supposition is the form developed for speed of manufacture, it presumably being much easier to hammer out a shallow bowl, and give it depth with the lame and reenforce than it would be to draw out the shape to the depth of the tail.

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:39 am**

Peder wrote:Here are the helmets Chef refers to while they may be an earlier stage of developement of the segmented tail they certainly aren't really IMO what has been discussed.

Brent

[img]http://www.mediumaevum.com/aa/tail2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.mediumaevum.com/aa/tail3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.mediumaevum.com/aa/tail1.jpg[/img]

Hi Brent,

They are articulated tails, are they not? And they are attatched to helmets. I don't see how they could possibly be not relevant, and I am quite sure that I would not be in a minority regarding this were you to poll the community more professionaly educated in the subject.

The second helmet clearly has an articulated tail directly attatched to the terminus of the bowl, as an extension of the bowl - as in later, multi-lamed articulated tails found in extant German sallets of the 1480's/90's.

If nothing else, they clearly indicate that the artist working in Northern France, in 1460 was familiar with the concept of articulated tails being present on helmets. We cannot tell by these drawings weather the lames forming these tails are articulated on leathers, or on rivets as in later German sallets, and mid to 3rd quarter Italian open faced sallets - all we can tell is that some Northern French and Flemish helmets in mid 15th century had articulated tails - I don't see any other conclusion logicaly being drawn.

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:20 pm**

On page 75 in A&AMK there is a picture of the Pistoia Cathedral altar peice that shows a helmet with exactly the same type of tail as the helmets in the pictures Peder posted. The alter dates to 1376 so this style might extend farther back into the 14th century.

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:21 pm**

Jason,
This is the pic your talking about.
[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/Images/carv5.jpg[/img]

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:32 pm**

Posted: **Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:42 pm**

Kit Houston wrote:Jason,
This is the pic your talking about.

Yep, that's the one. Thanks Kit.

Posted: **Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:44 pm**

Hello all
I would like to iron out a few points that have been discussed about my company on this board.
First off if anyone has a question about what a company is selling why they don't ask the company directly and stop all of this speculation of product quallity and companies intentions.
Yes the pictures on www.getdressedforbattle.co.uk are the same as on many sites and this was intentional to get you guys talking about us and hopefully to us, and at exhibitions we have received many offers of help and advice from re-enactors who could see that we were trying to improve the Indian imports.
James B. We are not another Ã¢â‚¬Å“Knock off Indian companyÃ¢â‚¬Â

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Sallets - acceptability of product for LH

Sallets - acceptability of product for LH

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