The Armour Archive

Posted: **Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 pm**

I have mixed emotions about it.

I do not think I will use my expensive 14ga. bronze on it.
I do not know if it is even worth finishing. It has mild steel 14ga. top and 16ga. sides

Oh well back to the drawing board.

Hal

Ps: I intentionally made the back and front long, trying to squeeze a SCA model out of it.

Posted: **Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:49 pm**

most of the similar ones that I have seen have some sort of hole configuration on the "face". Its hard to tell but it looks like there is a piece coming down in the back off of the main 'hat'. As far as I remember that is usually open or maile

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:41 am**

I think it looks fairly close to various early great helms I've seen, such as the Charlemagne Reliquary ones.

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g09a.jpg

Egfroth made one from there and I got inspired to make one too but yours seems to have a single occular and I dont think I have ever seen any such helms with occulars like that - but it wouldnt take much to add a piece in if you wanted to. Looks good but I would suggest giving it two separate eye holes.

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:44 pm**

My thoughts -

The face plate looks to wrap around too much. If you took about 2 inches off the side and extended the back plate to match. Then to make it look more accurate, you could do a layer of mallie (wait... CHAINMAIL!!! - that was for you Brian! :lol:

) around the back side to cover that plate....

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:01 pm**

Thanks for your input.

I thought I was pissing up a rope.

I will cut my losses and toss it down the creek.

Hal

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:19 pm**

Why don't you toss it my way. If it sca legal, I could certainly put it to good use.

BEDLAM

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:07 pm**

Hal it looks like a good first run.

Most of the really interesting versions of that style I have seen have more going on arund the crown. The crown usually looks rivetted on or highly decorated. I am thinking of the illustration by Mathew of Paris shown in AAoMK (13th century chapter) also the knights seen on the right side of the charlemagne reliquary. At least on of those if fluted around the crown. The height of your crown piece may be a little bit too great and I agree that the face plate wraps a little bit too far back. I would also move the placement of the face farther forward and not make the chin curve under quite as much. Build the MKII with the assumption that a mail drape will cover any defficiencies under the chin.
On the whole I think you have done a credible job of capturing the right look and feel. Particualrly given that we have an absolute derth of primary evidence for the style. Unless someone has an original kicking around on their mantle piece that we dont know of.

Posted: **Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:13 pm**

Thanks Thaddeus,

I suppose I am chasing an impossible quest. To build a SCA helm that looks historical.

Hal

(Edited to remove rant that does not belong on the Research and Authenticy forum).

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:53 am**

hehehe I agree...last time I visited one (an SCA event) I saw more grills than a southern family reunion!

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:09 am**

Allen J,

Thanks, you understand....

Your post was like a breath of fresh air....

Funny too...

I was all depressed; now I will finish this abomination, and I will do a good job on it too.

Hal

:-)

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:11 pm**

Halberds wrote:Thanks Thaddeus,

I suppose I am chasing an impossible quest. To build a SCA helm that looks historical.

Hal

Um... no.

While none are perfectly accurate, they are all SCA legal, and reasonably accurate to a layman. Any of them COULD be made by one more skilled than I to be more accurate, without loosing a bit of SCA-ability.

<img src="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/mattmaus/helmets/asugarloaf/fsugar3.jpg">
<img src="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/mattmaus/helmets/close/close1.jpg">
<img src="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/mattmaus/helmets/batburg/batburg2.jpg">

Your peice is deffinitley not a creek chucker, and with some MINOR modifications as others have suggested would be well within reasonably accurate, as well as SCA legal.

Posted: **Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:28 pm**

Doh...the close helm...Slaps forehead.

Thanks for the pics

Hal

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:57 am**

Halberds wrote:I have mixed emotions about it.

I think what I personally don't like about it is the way you have this nice slightly conical upper half, and then this globular face stuck onto the bottom. They don't seem to go together, to me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:07 am**

Hew wrote:
Halberds wrote:I have mixed emotions about it.

I think what I personally don't like about it is the way you have this nice slightly conical upper half, and then this globular face stuck onto the bottom. They don't seem to go together, to me.

naa it looks good hal. a lot of people told me to do the conical top when trying to finish off my helm like this. i think its a great version. add the nasal and be done

people can always cover the back with a mail drape like steve of forths armoury did

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:20 pm**

This is what it came out looking like:

I have spent enough time on this already. It is over budget and over schedule.

Thank you for your input and criticisms. I know one model will not please all the people all of the time; however with your help, I am able to shift the paradigms, thanks for your assistances.

Halberds

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:24 pm**

I think it looks great, Hal. There was a large degree of variation on the shape of those helmets, and yours is quite close indeed to several examples.

-Donasian.

Posted: **Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:52 pm**

Much better! That really is nice!! I like how you left the back detachable. You could keep it on and just do the mail covering too.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:08 am**

Thanks, this is a front view:

Hal

Ps: It looks a little skinny in the pic.

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:06 am**

Hal,

That looks cool as hell! Very well done! Hell, if I were still doin SCA, I'd kill for it

Tom

Posted: **Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:12 pm**

It does look pretty nice now, with the nasal, breath holes, and stuff around the eyes. The contrast between the top and bottom halves is much reduced. The front view helps a lot too.

Posted: **Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:19 am**

Make it out of stainless, give it rectangular breathes and recess the backplate to facilitate the installation of a maille aventail (i.e. a Master Knuut welded Ti aventail) and I'll take one.

Oh, and if you could powder coat it flat black with the re-enforcing straps flat red and I'd definately want to talk to you!

Posted: **Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:13 pm**

Ld. David de Clermont,

That is a tall order...

1. I do not do stainless steel.
2. Powder coating is beyond my reach.
3. The aventail adaptor is a separate piece around the back of the brim.
4. Your requested helm is a different animal altogether.

This was a test prototype in mild steel to get the pattern down.

Thank you for your interest and support.

Hal

PS: However, the rectangular breaths are a piece of cake.

Posted: **Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:31 pm**

Ld. David de Clermont wrote:...and recess the backplate to facilitate the installation of a maille aventail

I dont think these kind of helmets ever had aventails.

Posted: **Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:39 pm**

Umm
What is the intended fate of this fair helm?

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:55 am**

I was thinking of putting it on the archive classifieds as an another auction.

Hal

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:59 am**

Can you post the details for it please?
Specifically, the sizing.

BTW if you have not attached the back plate yet, I don't think you should.
This leaves the option of putting in a spacer to allow for maille to be run up the back.
I think Bedlam and I maybe fighting over this in the near future.

Also, it was suggested that this helm was not quite right for the period, because of the curve in the face plate.
The Seal of Robert FitzWalter has a helm with a very similar curve.
Suggested date early 13th century.

Someone even posted it to the web
http://www.tempus-vivit.net/hma-info/in ... r_main.php
About halfway down on the right hand side, lower pic.
(this looks like a cool site too, to bad I don't speak german that well)

Needless to say I am very interested in taking off your hands, assuming it fits.
Oh wait! I know! I CALL FIRST DIBS!

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:56 am**

I Just have one question:

How Much?

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:57 pm**

Hmm, now that you have the pattern down; any interest in selling it as a kit as you do the great helms?

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:53 pm**

You think he's waiting to see how long it takes for a Ad Hoc auction to start? :lol:

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:57 pm**

Sebastian wrote:You think he's waiting to see how long it takes for a Ad Hoc auction to start?

Hell, I'd give him $100 for it right now if it fits my head.

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:18 pm**

Wyrm wrote:
Ld. David de Clermont wrote:...and recess the backplate to facilitate the installation of a maille aventail

I dont think these kind of helmets ever had aventails.

They didn't but to use it for SCA combat and yet retain the helm worn over a coif look you'd have to cover the back plate with maille, hence the aventail.

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:22 pm**

Halberds wrote:Ld. David de Clermont,

That is a tall order...

1. I do not do stainless steel.
2. Powder coating is beyond my reach.
3. The aventail adaptor is a separate piece around the back of the brim.
4. Your requested helm is a different animal altogether.

This was a test prototype in mild steel to get the pattern down.

Thank you for your interest and support.

Hal

I'm wearing an Adam Berry helm based upon a very similar design yet with a rounded top. It is a dream helm but your design is very tempting and would look very good with my kit. You have moved into second place now with only Adam ahead of you. (You lost points because no stainless.) Wonderful work, Hal. Truly that is a piece of art.

PS: However, the rectangular breaths are a piece of cake.

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:53 pm**

I measured the helm, and without the back piece it is 7" side to side and 9" front to back. The circumference is about 25-1/8".

I will put something together for the classifieds tomorrow.

Hal

Posted: **Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:57 pm**

DAMN!
I'm out. My thick skull is about 7" side to side and about 9" front to back, 23" around with out padding.
I could wear it, but not for SCA combat.

Posted: **Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:19 pm**

Sorry Sebastian; however you guys were right it looks much better with the maile coif.

Comming soon to an auction near you.

Hal

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