The Armour Archive

Okay, I want to make a belt to suspend my new Birka "Lyre" Purse (and scramseax) from. I found this photo at the Frojel site:

http://www.frojel.com/Images/Galleries/ ... belt12.jpg

The Mercedes Logo/Steering wheel thingee is a strap divider/load distributor. As I understand, this is to join 3 straps together (although a thrid strap is not seen here). What would the third strap be for? Could it be to suspend the purse? If not, what's the theory?

Before you suggest it is to suspend a sword scabbard, I have heard that the "Vikings" used baldrics as opposed to waist belts to carry their swords.

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Instead of all the narrow plates I am thinking of making wider plates to cover the length of the belt. Do you think this is reaching too far from the original? I was thinking of plates decorated with punchwork like the keeper plate on my purse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/f ... aPurse.jpg

Please give me your thoughts.

Thanks,
Tim

Hey Tim which artifact are you looking at? Thier page is in frames and your link is the main site not the picture.

That is exactly how I wear mine.



I hang all sorts of stuff on the other one, from a coin bag, to site tokens...

For more research on viking belts check Sir Dirks belt documentation.
http://www.jomsb.org/Dirk/newbelt/newbelt.htm

If you check it out, not all of the distributors found in Gotland and Birka have three sections. It is more common to simply have a ring. Furthermore, it is very common to have only two strap end type things attached to it.

James: Fixed it...thanks!

Rollo: Thanks for the pic! Is your reconstruction based on something substantiated or is it theoretical (i.e. suspending a purse, using 2 strap dividers)?

Thanks,
Tim

Are you sure it's a belt? It could be horse reins.

Mord.

Sir Mord wrote:Are you sure it's a belt? It could be horse reins.

Mord.

Good question. Perhaps they have been found at waist position on bodies in graves? I'd like confirmation on that...

Tim

StudBuckle wrote:James: Fixed it...thanks!

Rollo: Thanks for the pic! Is your reconstruction based on something substantiated or is it theoretical (i.e. suspending a purse, using 2 strap dividers)?

Thanks,
Tim

As I said, check out Sir Dirks page... there is a ton of information from both Gotland (Frojel is in gotland) and Birka. He has tons of pictures.

As for substance .... that depends on what your looking for. I put two of them in my belt because I wanted to be able to hang things on either side. I also did it because I was using scrap leather, and didn't have a real long piece. Hanging my belt pouch from the distributor is what my interpretation was. Like I said, a large number of these dividers seem to only have two ends coming to them, so why would they have had the third slot? Also, some are shaped differently such that it makes sense to suspend things from them. While I can't remember exactly where I have seen it right now, I know that there was at least one found that was much more square.

As for it being from a belt, I am certain of this.

I seem to remember illustrations that showed 2 or more load dividers on them. Also I would say that hanging a purse or seax from them would be appropriate but not a sword.

I have never seen that meany belt stiffiners on one viking belt before. But, I think reposse work would be fine on them. Also, you could cast some out of pewter. that would look nice.

I believe the load distributers are called "Trinity" style and from what I remember there was not necissarily any rhime or reason for where they were, they could hang things off them but more than likely there were "joiners" for shorter straps to make a belt.

Okay..HERE is that essay by Sir Dirk---VERY helpful and full of photographic examples.

http://www.jomsb.org/Dirk/newbelt/NorseBelts_web.htm

Cheers,
Tim

StudBuckle wrote:Okay..HERE is that essay by Sir Dirk---VERY helpful and full of photographic examples.

http://www.jomsb.org/Dirk/newbelt/NorseBelts_web.htm

Cheers,
Tim

Nice essay. Very useful.

Hey, Studbuckles, are you going to the viking even in BMDL?

Mord.

Sir Mord wrote:Hey, Studbuckles, are you going to the viking event in BMDL?

Mord.

Yes, I will be there at least tomorrow. Are you attending? I will be the guy in the turqoise blue/black herringbone tunic, white and red plaid linen trousers---with my new Birka "Lyre" Purse a dangling. LOL

Cheers,
Tim

StudBuckle wrote:

Sir Mord wrote:Hey, Studbuckles, are you going to the viking event in BMDL?

Mord.

Yes, I will be there at least tomorrow. Are you attending? I will be the guy in the turqoise blue/black herringbone tunic, white and red plaid linen trousers---with my new Birka "Lyre" Purse a dangling. LOL

Cheers,
Tim

If all goes well, Maria and I will see you there.

Mord.

I have a similar one on my sword baldric. The strap in back goes to it, it splits into two straps which go to the scabbard, and the top scabbard attachment has a second strap which goes up the chest to the buckle. See Kim Siddorn's book on Vikings and Their Weapons for several examples.
I've never seen purses hung from outer belts except by Viking re-enactors.

Bascot wrote:I've never seen purses hung from outer belts except by Viking re-enactors.

Well that is good, cause if you saw an actual Viking doing it I would want to know where he is. I have a long list of questions for him!

Bascot wrote:...I've never seen purses hung from outer belts except by Viking re-enactors.

I hear what you are saying, Bascot. Yet they seem to have been an important enough item to be decorated and to have accompanied the person as his attire in the grave. As I understand, the counter arguement is: If a purse is to be worn under the tunic (and thus hidden) then why make it decorated? Of course, that is not a conclusive arguement to advocate wearing the purse "exposed" but perhaps it give some cause to doubt the "hidden purse" theory.

Cheers,
Tim

It could be worth looking to the East (at dawn, on the seventh day - sorry, drifted off there for a moment) - see http://www.geocities.com/normanjfin/belts/

The "Magyar" style belts often have plates with loops to suspend swords, quivers, and if I recall correctly, sabretaches, which are pouches somewhat similar in profile to the Birka pouch. I am not familiar enough with the finds to say whether or not three-way fittings of this type were used, although a friend with reasonable knowledge of Eastern Europe once assured me that they were (for what that's worth).

I do know that similar belt fittings have been found from the UK (including one near the Temple Church in London) to Russia (listed in "The Road from the Varangians to the Greeks and from th Greeks to the Varangians" - Smolenskij Gnjozdovo hoard).

My memory and papers elude me, but I think such a fitting was also found with the Viking burial on the Isle of Man (excavated in 1946?). I think the position would have been properly recorded there.

One question you might ask yourself is: "What would a Viking carry in a belt pouch or purse?" Car keys? Wallet? Checkbook? If I work out in one of the fields I certainly don't carry those items, as they serve no purpose. Most of the time a Viking (farmer) would have no use for flint and steel, spoon, or especially currency. If there is no place to buy anything, why even carry money? And if you were going on a journey, you would need more than a small purse to carry all of the necessities you'd require. Why risk losing silver in a pouch, either over or under a tunic, unless you were going to use it?

Bascot wrote:One question you might ask yourself is: "What would a Viking carry in a belt pouch or purse?"

Agreed. The oversized, undocumentable celtic-knotwork/Viking interlace tooled-leather pouches bouncing on the chain clad hips of overweight re-enactors as they lumber into battle can be in plague proportions at some events.

That said, you might also ask (to use what I understand to be US terminology): "What use would a soccer mom have with a huge all-terrain SUV?"

A display of assets and wealth - at least for those who have it (or have pretensions to having it!) ...

Generally, I (speculatively) think that a wealthy many would have many of his assets looked after and carried by others in his employ etc.

Call for your cup-bearer and drink to the end of the "Christmas Tree" school of re-enactment/living history!

(No aspersions cast on documentable pouches etc etc and those bloody Magyars etc who have huge amounts of documentation showing pretty, complicated and functional belts).

Cheers
Michael B

Bascot wrote:One question you might ask yourself is: "What would a Viking carry in a belt pouch or purse?"...

As point of fact, one of the two original artifact pouches that I chose as inspiration for the pouch I just made actually had coins in it when discovered. So, it is a least a coin purse. If you have an argument for that, let me hear it.

By the way, here's how my belt turned out:



Strap width is 1". That piece to the left of the strap end is a floating "keeper." I know that some keepers have been found but not out of sheet metal, so this is artistic license on my part.

While I was making punch-decorated brass stuff, I made a Birka style finial to replace the (much maligned) tassel on my "viking" hat.



The original artifact was cast, with granulated detail IIRC. However, I thought the punched decorated brass had a similar feel so I took some license. I think it is the right shape but in retrospect it looks a bit big. It's got a granulated gold fitting and a glass bead at the end (as opposed to the "mesh ball" that the original reportedly had).

O yeah...the shape is actually a four-sided cone, which is difficult to tell from this photo. For this I decided to try something besides the rubber "Poundo" leatherworking board to punch the brass against, so instead I used a piece of MDF as a work surface. SUCCESS!!! It made really nice defined dots. My next projects will be done using scaps of MDF for a work surface.

Cheers,
Tim

Tim, have you tried the end grain of various types of wood?---as we all know MDF is just so *renaissance*!

nice hat!


Thomas