The Armour Archive

...here's a wealth of tinbl bein from late Iron-age/early medieval Sigtuna. As for the scale: the boxes are ~2,5x5 or ~5x5 cm depending on if they're square or rectangular. The tinble bein are all in the storages of Sigtuna Museum.

For the record:
-Sigtuna: Swedens oldest town still in "use", founded in the late 10th century.
-Tinbl bein: smal fork of bone used to make cords etc. named after a find from Lund (Scania) with a runic inscription which in terms transcribes as "tinbl bein".

/N B

NyBjorn,

What exactly does "tinbl" mean? "Bein", seeing they look like they are made from bone, could probably mean just that (same word in oldfashioned German), but I can't get my head around "tinbl".

Any explanation would be appreciated....

Thanks,

Caithlinn

Thimble? They look a little big, but it's hard to judge scale just from the boxes (maybe museums use wee little boxes )

~Wil

Wil wrote:Thimble? They look a little big, but it's hard to judge scale just from the boxes (maybe museums use wee little boxes )

~Wil

The scale of the boxes is right in the description. It says that the rectangular boxes are 2.5 x 5 cm (approx. 1"x2") and the square ones are 5 cm (approx. 2") square. There is also a paper clip attached to one of the boxes holding a piece of paper that you can use to judge scale.

Either way, they are cool.

They look like the lucet cord making thingies.

Gah! I had my my mind somewhere else when I wrote the first post : -It's t-i-n-b-l bein. The best interpretation I've heard is that it's suposed to say "bone for the making of tenar". A ten is a thin rod or a filament, i.e. a thread or cord. In modern Swedish it's pretty much reserved for metal rods but like so many other words it used to have a much broader meaning. It has neight to do with "thimbles" though...

/N B

Interesting artifacts. Are they round or half-round? Are there any patterns of wear on them?

Clare

Yes, they are worn/polished on the points.
They are made from bone pipes, hence they are round in cross-section.
The ones on the picture only represent a part of the tinbl bein found in Sigtuna - in all there are ~15 of them. They are all rather small and most of them have some kind of simple decorations.

I just took some random photos since I'm not actually surveying textile implements for the moment...

/N B

NyBjorn,

is there any information why these bits are considered to be tinbl bein? (Thanks for the correction)

The one from Lund (and the ones from Norway, as far as I know) do look somewhat different, don't they? I mean there is a slight difference between a 15 cm long two pronged implement with a rectangular cross section of the prongs and a rune inscription telling you that it was used to wind fishing line with it, and these tiny round sharp (? they look it..) bits of bone that don't really look like they would be strong enough to hold a fishing line and whose prongs are much shorter (even the longest one...)

Wasn't there a theory about their use in leatherwork? (Hence the heavily worn points ..... ) Does anyone know a bit more about them? Any help would be greatly appreciated....

Cheers,

Caithlinn

I'm not sure if I follow you now Caithlinn.
The inscribed Lund tinbl bein from the Thule-dig (photo of the inscription here) is approx. 6,5 cm long and the second, uninscribed one (also from the Thule-dig) is approx. 5,5 cm. A third one can be seen here, alas I don't know the length of it. The largest ones from Sigtuna are about the same length as the first ones from Lund. They are all round or semi-round (as the bones they were made of) in cross-section. I seriously doubt their use as fishing-implements.

/N B

Cunian wrote:They look like the lucet cord making thingies.

Only very slightly. From what I've done of lucet, you need to have a deeper V or U, to have room to do the weave. Something with tines this short, I would think that the thread would slip right off.

Hm,

looks like I was thinking about a different thing alltogether.... sorry, my mistake. Since you mentioned that the interpretation is "for making of tenar", would you know how much is known as to how they were used? Or where I could find out?

Thanks,

Caithlinn

Charlotte said -

Cunian wrote:
They look like the lucet cord making thingies.


Only very slightly. From what I've done of lucet, you need to have a deeper V or U, to have room to do the weave. Something with tines this short, I would think that the thread would slip right off.

While they do have a tendency to slip, meaning you have to take a little care, they do, indeed perform the same function as a lucet. The lyre shape would probably be a refinement to prevent slipping.
These are generally half a hollow bone, with a "U" section - the woven cord fits in there. Indeed, if you make one from a complete hollow bone the cord sits through the tube of the bone.

Right, no bones lying around the house but a couple of small horns. Knocked up a VERY quick one, which needs some finishing (horns to be more pointed, possibly bore a hole through the end of horn for cord) However, it does work even with my clumsy fingers and limited luceting experience.
OK, not an exact copy of those in the pics above, but the principles the same.

Dear Ny Bjorn,

If I understand your previous message, you have access to these artifacts?

Please, please please take and post some close up pictures of the 3 decorated artifacts. These do appear to be lucets. For us fiber nuts, finding extant examples of lucets is one of our holy grails <G>.

Thank you loads in advance.
Julie in San Diego

Charlotte J wrote:

Cunian wrote:They look like the lucet cord making thingies.

Only very slightly. From what I've done of lucet, you need to have a deeper V or U, to have room to do the weave. Something with tines this short, I would think that the thread would slip right off.

It depends. I have sometimes found myself working nearly at the tips of mine. The lyre shaped ones you see nowadays tend to be modeled on much later designs - often post-16th century.

As previously noted, early lucets were simple, hollow tubes (often bone) with prongs at one end. However, it is hard to tell without extant cord attached how precisely they were used. These items in the picture could also be for plaiting or finger-braiding as well, but could have served as lucets in the way we are familiar.

Broinnfinn

broinnfinn wrote:It depends. I have sometimes found myself working nearly at the tips of mine. The lyre shaped ones you see nowadays tend to be modeled on much later designs - often post-16th century.

As previously noted, early lucets were simple, hollow tubes (often bone) with prongs at one end. However, it is hard to tell without extant cord attached how precisely they were used. These items in the picture could also be for plaiting or finger-braiding as well, but could have served as lucets in the way we are familiar.

Broinnfinn

I wouldn't necessarily expect it to look like the lyre shape, but I just thought it may be deeper. These tines are, according to the scale, shorter than a cm, and tapered - so I thought they might slip. Why make them so short, when making them longer is possible, and might be easier to use? I fully admit though, I'm not a very experienced lucet-er, I prefer fingerloop as it is much more documentable for my time period.

Ok, here's the million dollar question... These items, and others, have been found that could function for making lucet cord. Has anybody ever found cord with the proper lucet structure pre-16th century? There's lots of cord, the ones that I'm familiar with are all fingerloop structure. Have these lucets ever been found with the cord that they produced?

Thanks. I'm one of those folks who has always been wary of lucet, especially in the overuse that I believe it tends to get within the SCA to the sometimes exclusion of a very documentable way of making laces...

Another question we could ask would be what they are doing with these cords. I recall "braids" mentioned decoratively. Just - if there are a lot of cord-makers, presumably a fair bit of cord was wanted - so, do we know what they were doing with it?

Cord made this way is pretty darn strong. Many uses I would imagine. With a big enough tool (not like these!) you can fashion rope (useful for various things, especially among a sea-faring race) cords could possibly used for drawstrings for trews, Pointing hose, make small enough cord (thin) like one would imagine you would make with these and you'd have a pretty strong fishing line. String and rope - loads of uses in period I would imagine. And, yes, you could make decorative piping style cord with it. You can get a pattern of more than one colour woven using this method.
Most of this is conjecture on my part though! String/cord is useful. Did they use snares for small game then?

Hi Charlotte,

That's exactly what bugs me about it, too. As far as I know, there has been one published record of a square bit of cord in the Viking Period... in Väte, Gotland (thanks Ny Björn). Lucet cord and 8 strand braids look pretty much identical, without unravelling you probably can't tell the difference. In the find I mentioned it has not been possible to establish without a doubt that the cord in question wasn't made with a lucet, but it suggests an 8 strand braid as the far more likely method. We have (while not many, but at least a few) remains of other cords and braids, mostly later in date, true, but also made in other ways (fingerloop, pleating, tubular TW). If we also keep into account that cords for laces/lacing don't seem to have been used a lot in this timeframe, why would we expect to find many remains in the first place? The braids and cords found on some seams and as decoration are not made with a lucet. Later on there's more actual artefacts, yes, but even then, lucet cord artefacts are lacking until the 17th century.

Btw, Ny Björn, is there a date range for those tinbl bein in Sigtuna? Do they all date from the 10th century?

Cheers,

Caithlinn

edited, cause I got the reference wrong....

Could it have been used to make the metal "passimentiere" (I know I butchered that one!) braids, ala Birka?

Maria A.S.

First: As far as I know most of the tinbl bein from Sigtuna dates from the town's two first centuries (i.e. the late 10th and the 11th).

Secondly: There is another find, a grave from Grötlingbo, Gotland, which included two qualities of cord that might have been made with tinbl bein. One was 3-4 mm thick and the second 1,5-2 mm (both are square in cross-section).
Kerstin Pettersson who reported the grave in 1968 tried several braiding techniques but non of them produced cords like the ones from Grötlingbo. She then tried various tinbl bein with 2,3 and 4 points. The cords made with 3 and 4-pointed tinbl bein were too thick but a tinbl bein with 2 points gave a cord which was identical to the ones from Grötlingbo - at least on the surface, Pettersson stated that it wasn't possible to "un-braid" the originals. (Kerstin Pettersson, "En Gotländsk kvinnas dräkt. Kring ett textilfynd från vikingatiden" TOR XII, 1968 p. 189 f).

/N B

Orc wrote:Cord made this way is pretty darn strong. Many uses I would imagine. With a big enough tool (not like these!) you can fashion rope (useful for various things, especially among a sea-faring race) cords could possibly used for drawstrings for trews, Pointing hose, make small enough cord (thin) like one would imagine you would make with these and you'd have a pretty strong fishing line. String and rope - loads of uses in period I would imagine.

I used to use lucet made cord to lace close my gowns, before I discovered fingerloop. What I've since realized, is that luceted cord is actually quite stretchy. It has a several inch give, over the length of a 1 yard cord. That may be more, or less, useful, for some applications.

Yah!
Agreed - I've found the same thing myself. One would imagine that a bit of stretch could be useful in some things.
Incidentally my wife has just made a small bag - she, carded, span, dyed (where coloured) the wool, and then wove it. She then made the bage and lucetted (her first time) a thinnish strap for it in matching wool. It is really cool and I want one for my kit now. She's only been doing this for a short time. Her first wools, all dyed with natural dyes, got knitted and used as panels on bags I'd made for her stuff. It's pretty cool how variations in depth of colour on dyed yarn can give patterns when knitted!
Just thought I'd mention this as I'm really proud of her!

Ok, Since there are some doubts to whether a tinbl bein is a textile implement or not I took an extant tinbl bein from Sigtuna and as you can see below: yes, a tinbl bein works just fine...

/N B

Thanks Ny!

Cool, NB! So are the timbl bein deliberately smoothed on the inside of the bone? That would make sense if a cord is running through them. I see from your pictures that some of them are decorated. I don't know much about this time/culture-- is this amount and quality of decoration typical of other tools that have been found, or is it nicer?


The drawback to fingerloop and tubular TW is that your cord is a relatively short length-- max of 6' or so for fingerloop, maybe a few yards for TW. If you need a long continuous length those techniques won't work.

Clare

Ok - for those interested I have webbed a few photos of tinbl bein from Sigtuna - you'll find them here.

As for their decoration: some are just plain bonepipes, some have a simple line-design and some have ring-and-dot ornaments. All styles were common in early medieval Scandinavia.

/N B

Hello - was referred to your discussion from an acquaintence who posted the info and links to photos of the tinbl bein. I hadn't discovered this forum before, and am quite happy to have done so now!

As for my own foray into Norse cording, you can see the results of my efforts at this site.

Very nice, Hjordis.


Damn, I love this place!

Ny Bjorn, these things are TINY!!! I had no idea of scale until I started looking closely. Is that one on the far left of the middle row of the first picture (with the criss-cross pattern) the same one in the picture below, sitting on someone's fingers and being about the size of the last joint?

I tried making one of the bigger ones, and it's STILL tiny. And making cord with it is a real bugger. The shape of the pegs encourages the loops to slide off at the most inconvenient times, and lose the whole thing. And it's also hard to get a good tight tension. Pull hard and the loops slip off again . . .

But I've persisted, and finally got the hang of it and actually made some cord using the rotten thing . . . Not bad for someone who couldn't use a lucet a month ago! And no, I didn't have the nerve to make the really tiny one.

Also, on re-reading the thread I think I should have left the bone tubular, rather than cutting it open. It'd still work, though.


BTW - any word on those photos of "four-peg" lucets? And is there a front view available for tinbl bein No. 6?

Tracy - what's tubular TW?

Egfroth,

exactly what I find so hard to figure out, too.... they are just so so small... I don't doubt at all that they work, but heck, it's a sore trial to work with something that small..... I have other ideas about them, but nothing fit for mentioning/publication yet...

Tubular TW is tubular tablet weaving, where the weft, instead of going in on one side of the shed, turn and going back from the other, it always passes through from the same side. This "joins" the sides of the braid together and it forms a tube. There are finds from London of this type of braid, from the end of the 14th century.

Hope this helps,

Caithlinn

Thanks, Caithlinn. Never heard of that before. I can do conventional tablet weaving, but tubular sounds quite wierd. If I want a tube, I'll French knit - no length restrictions.

Ohoy!

I'm back - it's been publication season here so I haven't been able to spend much time at the AA for quite some time (well - there's always time for a refreshing visit to the nut-case section).

I had a day in the storages of Sigtuna Museum back in late November but sadly all the tinbl bein were taken out by someone else so I can't post any more photos yet. No worries though - I'll spend a month or so up in Sigtuna this winter - we've got 3 m³ of slag to go through (old dig = they didn't know what to look for) so I've got plenty of time to shoot tinbl bein meanwhile...

Cheers

/N B

There are some 12 - 13th century lucets in finds from Beverley, East Yorkshire, England.

Sheep metacarpal.

I will add the book ref, a friend has it at present.