New harness and clothing specs - Suggestions wanted!

[Mike F]

Okay, I'm throwing this out for critical analysis. I can document about half of this, but I'd like any complaints on the other half. Or suggestions. Suggestions are better.

I'm doing an English man-at-arms from the Battle of Agincourt (1415). Most of the gear can be dated to 1380 for the harness, and it's all still in use in 1415. The clothes are from the "Knight" in a period copy of the Cantubury Tales (I think).

I'm not an artist. Let me just say that now. The base person is a tracing of a figure from an online site with armor lineart (I don't recall which, sorry).

The harness is shown in various states of dress for the points and the layers to come across.

All the maille would be wedge-riveted flat links, or perhaps alternating row, which I realize is out of date by this point, but my cost is my cost. The entire plate portion of the harness will be made out of 1050 carbon steel by yours truely.

Proportions may be a bit off.

According to Dr. Capwell, case greaves and cuisses were big, as was symmetry and ability to fight on foot. The roundels on the arms are distinctly English as well.

This harness has been more than a year in the making, and not one piece is done, but I'm finally satisfied the harness is going to be as appropriate as I can make it.

Also: Crease on the breastplate or no? I'm going with no right now. I don't think I've seen one, and it's smpler without.

[Egfroth]

Mike, have you looked at the Gothic Eye brasses? English, through the centuries, with quite a decent number from the time you're interested in.

Keeping in mind that the date of a brass may not be the date of death of the person represented - sometimes brasses were made quite a few years afterward - and that therefore the brass of a guy who died in (say) 1415 may show armour of the date the brass was done, some years later, nonetheless, I think you'll find these brasses of great use.

Do you also have How a Man Schal be Amyd at His Ese When He Schal Fight on Foote? Dated to 1450, but I think still pretty apt for your period.

Not an expert on this time, but what you're doing looks pretty good. Others more knowledgable might be better able to comment. Was that visor still in use by 1415?

[Jehan de Pelham]

The illustrations look great. Kudos on deciding on an underwear-out harness. You won't be disappointed.

On the heraldic device wear. I am not too convinced that a lot of heraldic device wear was done outside of ceremonial uses. I have since shied away from wearing it all the time.

Actual round fans on elbows and knees are hard to come by in the effigies from this era. They seem common for the earlier 14th century. Ballock shapes (per the Black Prince Effigy), variations of ballocks (many effigies and tulips (per the Sir Hugh Calverley effigy) are most common at least among the effigies in Stothard's work.

The houndskull, especially with the shape beginning to look "great-bascinet-ish" would have been top of the line for 1380. Your tonlet would have been state of the art for Agincourt, and probably non-existent in the 14th century (based on dates of death for effigies in Stothard, also the Wilcote effigy dated 1411 and possibly later).

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Mike F]

My understanding is a true heraldic garment is formal in the way of a tux nowadays. Court, various other official duties, and, of course, battle.

Not that we fight in tuxes.

The visor was still in use. King Charles the VI of France had one. About this time things started becoming rounder or more battleship prow-like, but this design was current, is perhaps quaintly retro, dunno.

The Charles the Mad bascinet had a maille aventail as well, but there was a movement towards great basicnets at the time, however, it does mean a lack of visibility on foot, and since I can't raise my visor in battle, I can't accomodate that. However, this should be acceptable, if a bit lower class.

I've never actually seen a link to the "How a man should be armed" text, so thanks. I have looked through Gothic Eye, and from what I've been told, Sir Edmund Thorpe died on campaign (after Agincourt) and thus his armor was one of the better ones to look at. That's where I got the roundel arms from. The knees, which you can't really see, are the standard spade shape.

The waist is actually a series of faulds, although the difference may be semantic. It's shown on an effigy from 1401 (Sir Thomas Braunstone) and continues through many contemporary harnesses. (Gothic Eye examples <a href="http://gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3&offset=63"> here</a>)

I have no problem with the harness being a little cutting edge so long as it's all feasible.

I appreciate the feedback. I'm just citing my sources to show why I chose what I did. That and hip shots.

[Egfroth]

Is there a source for those reaaally wide sleeves?

[Mike F]

Yup. I think it's Cantebury tales, and it's from around 1415. I don't recall exact numbers.

[Halfdan]

Just a note on the wing sleeves: a local (SCA) fighter who has an angel-winged surcoat recently got told that his sleeves unfairly blocked shots by slowing down the weapon as it swung towards his body. Perhaps that tendency to slow down blows is a consideration that was made in period when choosing this type of garment.

[Agentofselection]

The clothes are from the "Knight" in a period copy of the Cantubury Tales

Are these clothes supposed to be for civilian wear? The image you posted looks like arming clothes, in that he's got points on the chest of that that would appear to be for a breastplate, (though I admit pointing a breastplate on seems odd) and he could easily fit his arm harness under the sleeves. The look of wearing all the arm and shoulder armour under a garment such as that, and the breastplate over it, seems to be popular in this time period, so it looks as if he's not wearing civvies, just his arming clothes without the armour.

[Karen Larsdatter]

it looks as if he's not wearing civvies, just his arming clothes without the armour.

That's my impression, too. The illustrator of the Ellesmere Chaucer (c. 1410) was pretty good about following Chaucer's descriptions of the pilgrims. (You can go to the bottom of http://geocities.com/karen_larsdatter/chaucer.htm and compare for yourself.)

In the case of the Knight's clothing, the illustrator is responding to the following lines in the Prologue:

Of fustian he wered a gypon
Al bismotered with his habergeoun

What's really unclear is what Chaucer actually means by a "jupon." He only uses this term in one other area -- when the Knight is describing what the knights following Palamon are wearing ("In a bristplate, and in a light gypoun").

But certainly, if we look at a close-up of the Ellesmere Knight, it's a clearer view of how the garment seems stiff and quilted, and the points at the chest.

But ... on the other hand ... we refer to the item below as a jupon (whether it matches with the 14th century concept of a jupon, I don't know; maybe Chaucer would have called this cote-armor), and other iconographic evidence would certainly lead one to believe that the Black Prince wore this as the outside layer of his armor:
[img]http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/ArmingCoat/pix/BPrinceCote.jpg[/img]

Edited to add: It seems that Chaucer's intention is to show that the Knight is joining the pilgrimage so recently on the heels of his journey to war that he hasn't even had time to change out of his jupon ("For he was late ycome from his viage, / And wente for to doon his pilgrymage") -- and not that this would have been his regular day-to-day wear.

[Tailoress]

Mike, I didn't mention this days ago when you first posted your sketches because I thought you were using another source than the Ellesmere Chaucer (though that came to mind immediately when I saw your sketch), because the sleeves are not the same as those in the Ellesmere Chaucer. During this time period, the full sleeves had two general designs happening: an open, "angel wing" (like what you have drawn) and a bombard, which could be severely deep, like that of the Knight in the Ellesmere Chaucer's illumination or shallow, like numerous other sources from this time depict.

The "bombard" design is one with a wide, baggy area under the arm with a narrow wrist opening. It was a popular trend to wear a layer of clothing beneath with extra long, sometimes ruffly cuffs that hung over the hand. How else to show off your bottom layer of fashion, if the bombard sleeve completely encloses the portion on your arm? (Although this trend was not a military one for obvious reasons, it does serve as strong circumstantial evidence that the sleeve was a closed one, not an open one.)

In any event, take a closer look at the Ellesmere Chaucer and you will see what I mean. That sleeve is not open. It is a deep, somewhat V-shaped bag, with a little wrist opening.

-Tasha

[Tailoress]

Is there a source for those reaaally wide sleeves?

Hi Egfroth,

(I'm sorry -- every time I see your name, I think of an eggcream drink, the kind with froth on top!!!)

Anyway, back to serious answering... yes, there are multiple visual sources for this look in the early 15thc, both civilian and martial. It's weird; I was just looking over a few martial examples in the Paris 1400 exhibition catalog (great book, btw, for anyone who loves the material culture of the late 14th and early 15thc and in particular, the French culture of this time) at the moment when I read your query. Pages 204 and 205 of the catalog present two martial examples from two versions of manuscripts discussing the works of Salluste. The first shows a mounted knight with a red and white surcotte with "angel" sleeves ending in scalloped dagges and the second shows a mounted knight wearing a blue surcotte with deep bombard sleeves.

In any event, there are many other examples which you will most likely find by perusing illuminations from approx. 1400 to 1425, and in some cases, 1390 onwards.

-Tasha

[Mike F]

That's a really steep angle. I don't see it on the close arm (but it does look closed) but the far arm looks like a V now that I look at it. Thanks.

And I've been vexed by the arming points as well. Perhaps it's for a set of rondels? Those were in fashion <i>around</i> that time.

[Egfroth]

Is there a source for those reaaally wide sleeves?

Hi Egfroth,

(I'm sorry -- every time I see your name, I think of an eggcream drink, the kind with froth on top!!!)

That's the idea. The full name is Egfroth the Smooth, of Morang (the name of a real place about 15 minutes drive from my place!). But for the origin of the name, see http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/EgfrothName.html

Anyway, back to serious answering... yes, there are multiple visual sources for this look in the early 15thc, both civilian and martial. It's weird; I was just looking over a few martial examples in the Paris 1400 exhibition catalog (great book, btw, for anyone who loves the material culture of the late 14th and early 15thc and in particular, the French culture of this time) at the moment when I read your query. Pages 204 and 205 of the catalog present two martial examples from two versions of manuscripts discussing the works of Salluste. The first shows a mounted knight with a red and white surcotte with "angel" sleeves ending in scalloped dagges and the second shows a mounted knight wearing a blue surcotte with deep bombard sleeves.

In any event, there are many other examples which you will most likely find by perusing illuminations from approx. 1400 to 1425, and in some cases, 1390 onwards.

-Tasha

Fair enough. Not really my period. The 11th century is much more my comfort zone.

[Cet]

What are your plans for the back of the torso protection?