Norman Scabbard?

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:49 pm

So for my new Binnies Norman sword, do I need to decorate the scabbard in any way? For what I can gather, they were pretty much left plain and utiliterian. JesseB, got an answer on this one?

Cris

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:36 am

Here is a picture of Jesse's swords from Viking to 13th c:

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/Normans/ConroiFitzOsbernMarch06/TimFull/100_1008.jpg[/img]

Here are some pictures of the one I made

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/Normans/ConroiFitzOsbernMarch06/Full/PICT0025.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/images/armory/Scabbard/Full/PICT0004.jpg[/img]

Patrick Kelly · Post by **Patrick Kelly** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:19 am

There are several surviving scabbards from this era, but none that can be called distinctly 'norman', so I don't think we can use them as a benchmark. Also, period artwork doesn't supply any really clear details on scabbard ornamentation. Surviving scabbard chaps that have been identified as Norman tend to be plainer than similar items from previous periods.

Given that the Normans seem to have prefered more austere dress, I'd guess that their equipment might have reflected this as well. Depending on the social position of the 'Norman' you want to portray I'd think it could be rather plain, or fancier with dyed leather and perhaps some tooling and embossing. However, I don't think anything overly elaborate would work too well.

This is just my opinion though.

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:42 am

James,
One scabbard that I made for my old sword is made in the same way and I was guessing that little or no decoration would be right.

Patrick, kinda what I am thinking too.

C

Patrick Kelly · Post by **Patrick Kelly** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:19 pm

Here's a few photos of a scabbard I own.
http://www.pbase.com/khp_plk/big_johnsson&page=all

While the scabbard is pretty plain overall there are incised lines on the scabbard, as well as a bit of decorative work on the chape. I think something with this level of decoration would apropriate for a mid-level Norman persona.

JesseB · Post by **JesseB** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:33 pm

Yes, I think a plain scabbard with incised parallel lines would look good. You could make the belt a different color from the scabbard and a nice plain U chape of bronze or blued iron. I would go with a buckle and chape on the belt as opposed to the slit tail type. If you look at the Tapestry, all of them seem to have a buckle and chape. How it is attached is difficult to determine. There could've been a simpler method of the later 12-13th centuries, known as the Ekkehard method, and there is one surviving example from the Bamberg Cathedral, which they think is 11th century and on this example, the long end of the belt is butted right up against the short end of the belt. So the scabbard hanges more verticle. As for colors I would stick with browns, or maybe reds and greens as all are mentioned for dying leather of the period.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

JesseB

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:16 pm

So whats your alls take on the theory of Normans wearing their sword belts and scabbards UNDER their mail

IIRC the BT shows some of the normals with no waist belts but sword pommels sticking out from their mail.

Halv

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:26 pm

glen and i talked about this at the event, we were looking at the wilson book too. i think a lot has to do with artist mistakes. there were some belts, some without, some hilts in scabards, some in the mail with scabbards sticking out some in mail with no scabbards sticking out and some in scabbards while the wearing was holding a sword in his hand.

now at this event i did not sinch my mail up with a belt. i jsut wore a sword belt over it and let if hang. i honestly could not tell you the difference from it form sinching the mail over the belt. i kinda felt more free in my movements without the horizontal sinching belt.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/w ... i/SM27.jpg unsinched

vs

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... CT0045.jpg
sinched

damn my belly is a lot smaller now then hastings 05. mail is not forgiving

Patrick Kelly · Post by **Patrick Kelly** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:49 pm

Halvgrim wrote:So whats your alls take on the theory of Normans wearing their sword belts and scabbards UNDER their mail

IIRC the BT shows some of the normals with no waist belts but sword pommels sticking out from their mail.

Halv

There is existing statuary, column capitals, etc., that clearly show the scabbard being worn under the hauberk. The BT is too limited of a resource to make judgements on that, but these other sources are pretty clear in their detail. I've never worn a scabbard in this fashion and really have no desire to, but it seems to have been done.

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:32 am

Chris,

THIS is what you should make.... :twisted:

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:50 am

Oh yeah, Haldan. I'll get right on it...

C

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:13 am

christofre fortescu wrote:Oh yeah, Haldan. I'll get right on it...

C

Just come up and visit. We'll get it done!

:twisted:

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

Alright, I'll be there right after work... :roll:

C

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:43 pm

Haldan, that is beautiful work. I am about to do another scabbard for my LH sword from Paul Binns and think I may try something elaborate like that. Where did you get your chape, buckles, etc? Or did you make them?

Also what source did you use for the design ideas? Any info and referrences you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Uric

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:51 pm

Blackoak wrote:Haldan, that is beautiful work. I am about to do another scabbard for my LH sword from Paul Binns and think I may try something elaborate like that. Where did you get your chape, buckles, etc? Or did you make them?

Also what source did you use for the design ideas? Any info and referrences you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Uric

Uric,

Those pics are from another web site, one of the Viking LH groups webpage I believe. The design are, of course, representative of the Tapestry. But I am sure that Haldan and elaborate further.

C

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:28 pm

As Chris said, those images came from the Dane Tree Vikings site http://www.danetre-vikings.org.uk. Unfortunately that group took down their web site.

I believe that you can find the sword fittings (Throat and Chape) at http://www.jelldragon.com/scabbards.htm or http://www.re-enactment.biz/bronzeindex.html or http://www.northan.net/cgi-bin/enshop/commerce.cgi or http://www.birkatraders.com/test/list.php?category_id=28&group_id=5 or even http://quietpress.com/swordfittings.html

The 'Style' of the scabbard is from the Bayeux Tapestry and early Anglo-Norman motifs.

I don't currently make the metal bits shown but I think I may play with that just to see what I can come up with.

If there is anything else I can help you with please feel free to PM or email me.[/url]

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 pm

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. Mercia has some beautiful stuff!

Uric

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:39 pm

Blackoak wrote: Mercia has some beautiful stuff!

Lemme know if you decide to order fom him. I have a way to beat the shipping costs.

JesseB · Post by **JesseB** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:02 pm

Only thing about that is that its more viking in flavor than Norman. The BT shows mostly waist belts as opposed to Baldrics as they were falling out of favor by this time. It looks great for viking and anglo saxon though.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:26 pm

Actually, the BT shows almost NO belts being worn over hauberks. The swords seem to hang in maid-air, suspended perhaps by skyhooks?

This has given rise to a theory among English re-enactors that the sword belt was worn under the hauberk, with a "hanger" protruding through a hole in the mail, that the scabbard was hung on. I can't agree with it myself - I just think the cartoonist forgot to include belts in his drawings for the seamstresses to embroider.

And I think we need to be a little careful assuming that the Normans used less decoration than other races. The evidence for this is thin, at best, and the surviving documentation and archaeological evidence of anything regarding the Normans is so sparse that I don't believe we can make any definitive statements on this subject.

PS: Haldan, that scabbard is incredibly pretty. Perhaps a little overstated, but VERY pretty!

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:53 am

Haldan wrote:The 'Style' of the scabbard is from the Bayeux Tapestry and early Anglo-Norman motifs.

Apparently I left out a word or two when typing.
It should have read "The 'Style' of the decoration of the scabbard "

Sorry for the confusion.

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:16 am

watch the almost hehehe cause there there. also there are swords in scabbards being held were you can see a buckled end instead of the laced tie method many of us have

JesseB · Post by **JesseB** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:34 am

The two best representations of sword belts in the BT are scene nine the ransom is discussed- the two groups of Normans on the left both, of which are holding their swords, have waist belts with buckles and strap ends. Scene ten - two more normans wear their swords on their waist belt with the one on the right clearly showing the belt going around the scabbard. Just examples.

Since these two are so clear, should we belive that there is different method just because they wore hauberks?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:13 pm

Wolf wrote:watch the almost hehehe cause there there. also there are swords in scabbards being held were you can see a buckled end instead of the laced tie method many of us have

Agreed. In fact, there is one definite sword belt OVER the hauberk - see the guy getting the sword in the face in the second panel at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... 46_48.html - and the method of attachment appears to be a pair of loops *around* the scabbard. Contrast this with the criss-cross system we know so well, shown on Bill's scabbard in the second and third panels at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... 16_18.html

Jesse, I agree wth you, but I would interpret the guys holding their swordbelts as English, and in particular Harold (note the hairstyle and moustache) - the top panel at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... ct7_9.html - Harold is offering his sword to Bill the Bastard in token of surrender. The previous panel shows Harold in "custody", with his sword belt being held by one of Bill's Norman henchmen.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:17 pm

Wolf wrote:watch the almost hehehe cause there there. also there are swords in scabbards being held were you can see a buckled end instead of the laced tie method many of us have

Agreed. In fact, there is one definite sword belt OVER the hauberk - see the guy getting the sword in the face in the second panel at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... 46_48.html - and the method of attachment appears to be a pair of loops *around* the scabbard. Contrast this with the criss-cross system we know so well, shown on Bill's scabbard in the second and third panels at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... 16_18.html

Jesse, I agree wth you, but I would interpret the guys holding their swordbelts as English, and in particular Harold (note the hairstyle and moustache) - the top panel at http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bayeux_tap ... ct7_9.html - Harold is offering his sword to Bill the Bastard in token of surrender. The previous panel shows Harold in "custody", with his sword belt being held by one of Bill's Norman henchmen.

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:41 am

Chris

If your interested in various leather designs/motiffs
I have a cd of nothing but various leather projects and images of period artwork from carvings, stones, etc

It all comes from one of the Vikes who is an superb leatherworker

some of his work can be seen at http://www.vikingsna.org/temp/jims_work/

Halv

ps: nice work Haldan!

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:56 am

Halvgrim wrote:ps: nice work Haldan!

Halv,

I can't take credit for that work. I didn't do it. I had just saved the photos from the Danetree Vikings site. Matter of fact, from the links you posted the fellow you mentioned may have done the work. The styles and 'feel' of the works are similar.

Haldan

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:59 am

Haldan wrote:
Halvgrim wrote:ps: nice work Haldan!

Halv,

I can't take credit for that work. I didn't do it. I had just saved the photos from the Danetree Vikings site.

--Doh!
Sorry
That will teach me to skim thru a thread:)

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:02 pm

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 pm

Halv,

I would very much like to see more of his work. Very impressive stuff.

C

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:52 pm

christofre fortescu wrote:Halv,

I would very much like to see more of his work. Very impressive stuff.

C

Chris

Send me your mailing addy in a PM and I will try to get that burnt and shipped this weekend

H

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:07 pm

Chris

I mailed the cd Saturday morning

Halv

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:43 pm

Thanks man.

I bought some 5/6 ounce leather that I can't wait to start cutting up, after I make some new shoes. The next thing I need to find are some findings to place on a belt and pouch.

C

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:44 pm

christofre fortescu wrote: The next thing I need to find are some findings to place on a belt and pouch.

sweet lord
do you really want to enter the maelstorm of pouches:)

Halv

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:57 pm

Halvgrim wrote:
christofre fortescu wrote: The next thing I need to find are some findings to place on a belt and pouch.

sweet lord
do you really want to enter the maelstorm of pouches:)

Halv

Sure do

C