A new spin on research

[D.Z.P.]

I tried to post this in the I want to be a... section but it wouldn't let me. I want to be Danish around 1000 or 1100. I don't know the city because I am stuck w/ no library and a bad internet connection. The catch is I want to wear metal lammelar.

Why? Because I like the look of it and I am tired of the feeling of getting hit in unprotected ribs because I don't heal as fast as I used to.

I am interested in getting the acuracy with in the "pretty damn close" or "pretty damn reasonable" range while still protecting myself and being able to enjoy myself (I will be makiing the lammelar out of 14 gauge stainless because rust and pain are my enemies). I am pretty certain that lammelar was in use during that time frame and what I need is to be able to somehow attatch it to my location i.e. I was a merchant and went on such and such cruise, to such and such place, where these people were, that could have gotten some lammelar from this other thing they did and I bought it off of them.

I fight in the SCA and I have no real problem w/ the C part of that but like I said above I would like this to not be total BS. I know that there are documented trading lanes but I can't find them anywhere online that the Big Brother hasn't blocked.

I am not asking for someone to write my personna for me but a gentle nudge (or swift kick in the rear) would be nice.

Also if someone wants to move this into the other section that would be cool.

[audax]

Hi Bjorn,

You should be able to find plenty of reasons for lamellar for your Danish persona. One could be you served in the Varangian Guard in Byzantine service and picked it up while there. YOu could also have gone on Crusade to the Holy Land and procured it from a dead Saracen. No one is really going to ask you to defend your armor choice as long as the presentation is coherent.

My only caveat would be that 14 ga lamellar is going to be pretty heavy, to the point where wearing it will slow you down and wear you out. Adam Berry's lamellae are 20 ga stainless and because of the overlap in the plates this actually works out to 10 ga protection. If you wear some sort of padded garment, that will take most of the sting out of shots. As far a sI know everyone who uses Adams stuff is pretty happy and not getting hurt.

If you want this in the I want to be forum, email Robert of Canterbury. He's the mod for that forum.

Regards,

audax

[Dan Howard]

Actually the only way a Scandinavian is realistically going to have lamellar is if he isn't in Scandinavia. Either he is in The Varangian Guard or in Central Asia. A re-enactor is supposed to be portraying the TYPICAL, not the EXCEPTION. If you just want something pretty to get smacked around in then don't bother with a persona.

[Egfroth]

Ah, Dan. Beat me to it.

Bjorn, a thread on this subject seems to come up about once a month on the Armour Archive. There are a lot of people who want to be Vikings but not wear the armour they wore - that is, mail. To be perfectly honest, if you want to be a Viking, particularly a Dane, you're pretty much stuck with mail.

OTOH if you're a trader - particularly a Swede - you'd quite likely be going south down the rivers of Russia to Khazaria or even to Byzantium, both of which used lamellar. Or even south and east to Great Bulgar on the Caspian Sea.

However, whether a trader would wear armour at all is quite another question. To be perfectly honest, I seriously doubt that anyone lower in rank than a noble would have any - whether mail or lamellar.

"Picking up" armour? Well, not very likely from being a Varangian Guard. Their armour was most likely issued from the Imperial arsenal, and would have to be returned when they reached the end of their term of service.

I suppose it would be possible to buy it privately, but the chances are that it would be low on a trader's list of priorities.

If you were a Varangian Guard, on the other hand, there's no reason you couldn't wear lamellar armour, and the Byzantines certainly had some good-looking stuff.

Dunno about 20 ga, though. Still seems too heavy. My lamellar is very thin - but as audax mentioned, there are two layers everywhere due to overlap. And if you are wearing Byzantine "banded" lamellar, you also have 2 layers of leather to further protect you at any point of impact.

See here for some pics of my own reconstruction.

[RandallMoffett]

Sounds like you have gotten some good advice about the possession of lamellar by a scandinavian.

Construction I can tell you some of my thoughts. Having looked into a few examples of authentic scale/lamellar (not sure what to call it really as some museums have different terms they use) in britain they tend to be thin, below 1m,usually less. I tried 16 gauge scale skirt and just that weighed a ton, I would never do that again or in a full form of torso protection. I have tried 18 and it is doable and seems to make little difference in protection from 16, but if I were to do it, especially in stainless it would be 20,maybe 22 in places I was unlikely to get hit.
Good luck,

RPM

[D.Z.P.]

I really appretiate all the help.

I understand that the thickness that I have chosen is a little overboard and will be heavy but it is what I have so I will need to do something w/ about 1000 Stainless rectangles before my wife will allow me to get any more.

I also understand what everyone is saying about the selection of Lammelar instead of maile. The main reason for not likeing maile as SCA armor is from my experience historically acurate maile does not offer enought protection against the blunt trama we subject ourselves to. If I make it stout enough to provide protection it would end up weighing a lot (possibley even more than the 16 ga Lammelar).

I am not too set on Denmark as my homeland. I am just tossing thoughts around in my head and I figured I would ask for some others opinions.

[D. Sebastian]

I know of several fighters that wear hidden lamellar.

Quite a few wear it under a tunic and top it off with maille.

[Halvgrimr]

audux, I want you to know up front I am not picking on you with this post.

Hi Bjorn,

You should be able to find plenty of reasons for lamellar for your Danish persona. One could be you served in the Varangian Guard in Byzantine service and picked it up while there.

I always loved this one.
Bjorn, I assume by your handle your in the Army.
What are the chances when your done with your enlistment that you will be allowed to take the most technically advanced set of body armour you are issued?

Imo the chances are the same that a wandering Varangian guardsmen would be allowed to take the lamellar he was issued.

Some will argue this but I think its a valid arguement.

YOu could also have gone on Crusade to the Holy Land and procured it from a dead Saracen.

This is my favorite arguement.
So picture yourself fighting Saracens.
You toast the guy and listen to his deathsong.
Afterwards, what are the chances you look at him and think "Damn, that armour worked so good for him that I think I might take it!"

No one is really going to ask you to defend your armor choice as long as the presentation is coherent.

This is true, if you want to wear it, wear it.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

YOu could also have gone on Crusade to the Holy Land and procured it from a dead Saracen.

This is my favorite arguement.
So picture yourself fighting Saracens.
You toast the guy and listen to his deathsong.
Afterwards, what are the chances you look at him and think "Damn, that armour worked so good for him that I think I might take it!"

Depends. If you only have a gambeson, you might take it. Nothing says that you have the latest and greatest armour. I dont think lamellar would work with a noble persona, or someone of great means, but for normal soldier, it might work. It might have been you toasted him while he was fighting your buddy.

[audax]

Gee, I guess all those stories of soldiers stripping armor off of dead foes are pure fantasy. I'm sure that any life loving, penniless soldier would walk away from a treasure trove of free armor whose previous owners have passed on. All the inventories of captured equipment must be just for show cuz you wouldn't want to replace damaged or lost equipment or anything like that. You know, since Fed Ex didn't deliver back in the day and you couldn't get your new hauberk overnighted. I'm sure a Varangian Guardsman never took a lamellar cuirass off a dead Turk or found one for purchase anywhere in the Middle East. Nope, no material syncretism anywhere. I'd even bet that all the polemics against Europeans wearing Moslem or other decadent Oriental armor/clothing were stimulated by it not happening.

And I've never read a book in my life, spent any time on the AA or spent a ton of money on a graduate education.

[D.Z.P.]

I always loved this one.
Bjorn, I assume by your handle your in the Army.
What are the chances when your done with your enlistment that you will be allowed to take the most technically advanced set of body armour you are issued?

Imo the chances are the same that a wandering Varangian guardsmen would be allowed to take the lamellar he was issued.

Halvgrim,

Fortunatley for me you are very wrong on several points. The most important is that I am NOT in the Army (spit on the ground) . I am however in the Marine Corps . Also like you said the standard Marine would not be able to keep his body armor/weapon, or any piece of gear the government has given him.

However, I am not the standard Marine. I have been given special body armor and when I leave the service in 92 days I will be keeping it. I will also be keeping many other things that the standard Marine would not have ever been issued and therefor would not be able to keep.

My point being not to just disagree with you but to say if someone was recreating this time period and wanted his persona to be a Marine EOD Tech after he left the Military he could own alot of military gear, and even some gear that most people wouldn't have.

Also if you look at almost all of the current documentation for the current U.S. Military almost none of the gear I wear and carry would be anywhere in it.

But I was told earlier that "A re-enactor is supposed to be portraying the TYPICAL, not the EXCEPTION. If you just want something pretty to get smacked around in then don't bother with a persona."

But none of this matters because no "real" re-enactor in the future to re-enact the Global War on Terror and be an EOD Tech because there arn't that many of us and I won't be burried with my gear anyway.

I have noticed that no matter how much common sense it makes many re-enactors refuse to believe something is possible because noone was dug up with something on.

(going off track, sorry, but I gotta do it)

In todays society people are not burried in their "work clothes" they are burried in their finest "pretty things". So does anyone have anything that says that someone in the Viking erra must, should, often was, burried in their work clothes? If not then dosent it kinda stand to reason that if I was a warrior and I wore leather armor my armor would be passed on to my son, turned into soles for shoes, etc.

I understnad that people were burried with things, I know that if you were really rich you may have been burried in your armor (but that would be the EXCEPTION not the TYPICAL so we couldn't re-enact that person anyway). But the people that were wealthy enough to own armor but not wealthy enough to buy there children armor would probably not have been burried in it, it would have either been passed on to a child, or recycled in some fashion. After all that is all armor is really, work clothes, and the richer you are the nicer you look when you go to work.

Sorry about some of that but I just kinga got anoyed when someone told me that because I am thinking a little into my personna to include where I have been and what I have done that I am not only, not doing it right, but that I should just quit trying bacause of it.

On another side note about the viking timeframe. Does anyone have a rough guess at the population? And does anyone have a guess at the total number of graves that have been excavated. I have no idea but I would venture to say that we are all going off of a microscopic portion of the population for all of our "facts". You could almost assume that we have not found most of what is out there, or what the TYPICAL pearson would have used.

Again I must appologize it have been a long day (1021 am and I am still awake) and I have jumped around alot. After I have a nap I will create a new post about my views on reserch and common sense.

And I am not trying to take jabs at anyone, I have no tact and I am working on it.

[Halvgrimr]

And is keeping your special tactical body armour common?
how many out of 100 would do the same?
(honest questions so i can reevaluate my opinion)




As i said in the end, if you want to wear it wear it
I have no problem with it
My problem is the complex back story like alot of folks create to justify it.

I am a dane who for no other reason than wanting body armour travlled to Byzantium for a short stint in the Guard (which in most cases folks no very little about other than this simple fact)

Heck, why not a short jaunt east and grab a katana too?
Why stop there?
Go further east in our travels and grab a few native americans as slaves (all the while inadvertently creating a 'woompum and firewater trade back to our homelands)


My point is keeping it simple keeps your representation closer to what the average person would have experienced.

But hey, who am I to keep the CREATIVE out of SCA?

Halv
part time SCAer

[Halvgrimr]

Gee, I guess all those stories of soldiers stripping armor off of dead foes are pure fantasy.

Just for fun, cite a viking age source that backs this up (I can think of ONE off the top of my head and not only is is very late, its context is questionable)

And I've never read a book in my life, spent any time on the AA or spent a ton of money on a graduate education.

No, you AA time is apparent in the sarcasm you use

[Rev. George]

To play Ba'alZebub's Barrister:

A re-enactor is supposed to be portraying the TYPICAL, not the EXCEPTION

that's why we base out get ups on statues/ paintings of kings andgreat nobles or potentially reverenat illuminations of biblical prophets or remnants found in the town trashdump (dead body inside optional)

-+G

[RandallMoffett]

You could always be a varangian. I think that was my plan but then I went to mail anyways.

If you do not mind a bid time change use the plate to make a brig or something. With plates that heavy it will be a tank but if you don't mind I don't see why anyone else does. same goes for the lamellar. Do you have the pieces cut already or are they in little squares?

RPM

[D.Z.P.]

First off how do you guys quote several different people at the same time?

Halvgrim,

The reason I get to keep my gear is I recieved a "One Time Issue" meaning they give it to me to use for the remainder of my time in the Corps. However when I leave I do not turn it in because it could theoretically be 20 years old (and who wants to get my old gear), the bad part is if I break, loose, sell it I have to replace it because I am required to have it. About the other guys I can only speak about the 20 I work directly with but I do believe 1 wears standard issue gear.

I totaly agree with you about how some people can go way overboard on their personna and make themselvs and their storyline borderline rediculous. However I think that using the rule of 2 steps you ushually keep it OK. People from place X and place Z both go to place Y so there are your two steps X to Y and Y to Z. (this is just my thoughts and I would never bag on a guy or thell him that he is not playing the game right). Also if you read my new post you will see some of my other thoughts on this.

Rev,

Rock on Man!

[audax]

Gee, I guess all those stories of soldiers stripping armor off of dead foes are pure fantasy.

Just for fun, cite a viking age source that backs this up (I can think of ONE off the top of my head and not only is is very late, its context is questionable)

And I've never read a book in my life, spent any time on the AA or spent a ton of money on a graduate education.

No, you AA time is apparent in the sarcasm you use

Bjorns time frame is Bayeaux Tapestry era, not Viking Age. There are depictions of the dead being stripped of their armor in the borders of it. I find it absurd to assume the same thing didn't happen in Byzantium or on Crusade or that the only time anyone ever stripped a dead man of his armor was at the Battle of Hastings.

Bjorn hasn't given us any persona back story and I never suggested he make any sort of convoluted back story, just a couple of plausible reasons someone in Scandinavia might have possession of a lamellar cuirass. The rest of it is in your head.

The idea that the Vikings/Norsemen only ever used mail is also absurd to me. Most of the warriors on the Bayeux Tapestry are depicted wearing mail, but quite a few are depicted wearing something else. Guy of Ponthieu wears what looks like a scale shirt, other men appear to wear some sort of textile armor, at least one man is shown wearing a brown "hauberk" that may be leather, etc. So gimme a break. The Normans were descended from Vikings and the Vikings were some of the most, um, acquisitive peoples in history. Not to mention the Vikings went everywhere.

Your example of going on a "short jaunt east to procure a katana, etc" is nothing more than (edit ) reductio ad absurdum and geographically absurd to boot.

This is for SCA not LH. We don't have to represent the typical or average. We can also represent the atypical, the possible and even the noble. Hence the we're the Society for Creative Anachronism, rather than being the Society for Orthodox Anachronism.

I'm only sarcastic to patronizing gits. Don't tell me how you're not picking on me, then proceed to do exactly that. If you're going to take me to task, you'd better know what you're talking about and find a way to be respectful about it. If Sir Rhys can do it, anybody can.

audax

[Cap'n Atli]

Bjorn:

You want to be an 11th century Dane? Then get with Halvgrim or me and put some time in on a longship! Do you think you're going to walk to England, Ireland or France, or points beyond? You need some time at the rowing bench and you'll forget all about lamellar. And if you did go with the Varangians, just how do you get up and down those rivers?

Given enough time sharing your personnal space with the crew, armor and arguments tend to take on a different perspecive. Let King Cnut worry about it; first you have to get there.



(A shameless recruiting plug for the Longship Company, and/or Halvgrim's Calontir Longship Company, and/or Viking Age Vessels)

If you want research, spun or otherwise? Start with the reality of what made the Viking Age possible; and go viking!

"Bound is the boatless man."

(Edited to eliminate error)

[Halvgrimr]

I'm only sarcastic to patronizing gits. Don't tell me how you're not picking on me, then proceed to do exactly that. If you're going to take me to task, you'd better know what you're talking about and find a way to be respectful about it. If Sir Rhys can do it, anybody can.

audax

Please son
If i wanted to pick on you I would, this is childs play, I am much more direct when I want to be (also, you have quoted one source, if this was so common where are the droves of sources?)

Using your mentality the BT also proves that everyone in the VA had big dicks, it HAS TO BE TRUE its shown in the borders of the BT, ya know the one little naked man running around with the huge slong? It also proves mythical beasts like dragons are real too, they have to be, the border shows it to be so, and that there were blue horses, and that mail shirts where made of 6inch rings and that...oh never mind.

Lets just forget the BT is the equivilant of a period comic book propoganda tool made by a sewing circle by women how werent at the battle and probably have no idea what armour was worn there, by all means lets us their visualitsation as a primary tool for research.

Smarter men than I have argued the 'scale' and other types of armours are incorrect for the time so I wont go into that debate.


By all means, all of you, please continue to pursue the lamellar claden armies of Norse warriors theory (despite the archeoalogical record lacking any real evidence to suggest it was so)

This is why I have stopped posting on the AA.

[Halvgrimr]

Hey Atli
Everyone knows that ship is crap!

It doesnt have the guns mounted to shoot greek fire and its not even flying a Minoan trade flag

All totally acceptable in the minds of some I am sure.

[D. Sebastian]

Unto thyself be true.
If you are doing research, do research.
If not, ok -- but call it something else.

It's binary.

If you come to a conclusion and then try to make the facts fit your desires, you're not doing it right.

Yes, you can be a "Viking" with a heater and a salet and lamellar in the SCA. If you do, no matter what method you use to get there is still going to be "lipstick on a pig" and flawed.

It's binary.


My method...
- Is there evidence? If yes, go for it.
- Is it Plausable? If yes, then tread carefully and go for the most conservative aspect of that plaus.
- Is it Possible? Anything is possible. It's possible that I could spontaniously combust. However, its also VERY unlikely. Stay away from this unless the aim is fantasy, then lean into it.



I hope that helps.

[Tibbie Croser]

I really appretiate all the help.


I also understand what everyone is saying about the selection of Lammelar instead of maile. The main reason for not likeing maile as SCA armor is from my experience historically acurate maile does not offer enought protection against the blunt trama we subject ourselves to. If I make it stout enough to provide protection it would end up weighing a lot (possibley even more than the 16 ga Lammelar).

For later periods at least, people wearing mail wore padded gambesons underneath to absorb the blunt trauma. A number of SCA fighters on the AA have posted pictures of themselves in their mail and gambesons. However, people on the AA have said that there's no real evidence for Vikings wearing gambesons; Vikings may have worn several thick woolly tunics under mail to absorb impact. For SCA purposes, perhaps you could wear, from outside to inside, mail, a wool tunic, a gambeson, and whatever rigid armor SCA rules require, plus perhaps a linen undertunic to absorb sweat. As far as I know, only the mail and wool tunic would be historically correct, but they would hide the incorrect layers.

[D. Sebastian]

I know of several fighters that wear hidden lamellar.

Quite a few wear it under a tunic and top it off with maille.