decorations to tool on leather?

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:10 pm

Hi all,
I'm in the process of starting a TON of leather goods. I'm making belts, bags, pouches, kestrels, shoes...

this is getting me ready for Pennsic (and making stuff for others too).

well anyways, I'm looking for some period decorations to tool to the leather. whether it be floral, animals, figures...whatever. 14th cent. is best for this but other times will work as well. what I need is either pictures or links of period manuscripts/paintings/woodcuts/tooled leather that has examples of patterns that I could use to tool on leather.

I have searched on this in the past with little to no luck.

Thanks,

Aaron

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:31 pm

"Knives and Scabbards, Museum of London" Has a bunch of close up photographs of leathing tooling from 3 to 4 different centuries as I recall.

You checked there yet?

Thomas

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:27 pm

is it a book? if so I think Murdock has it. I'll have to ask him to bring it to armouring.

Thanks,

Aaron

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:53 pm

http://www.whiteroseapparel.co.uk/acespage.htm

Jesmond

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:39 pm

Hi Jess.
Thanks for the link. Thats sort of what I'm looking for, some floral designs but more detailed-not just stamps. but I must say thay do have some really nice brigs.

BTW- if anyone has line drawings of any of these "patterns" I'd like to hear about them as well. I'm thinking to just get one of those dover :?:

books with the clipart CD>

Thanks,

Aaron

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:51 pm

Something I'd look to is the decorations of manuscripts of that period. Al Stohlman's books on leather tooling are all very well for 19th-century Spanish-influenced floral carving, but only of marginal help with the Gothic lineaments of the 14th century.

So what were they doing then? Well, there were a lot of areas paneled over with repeating stuff that some leather stamps can do, either complete coverage or as background to a scene -- square panels with flower centers, maybe fleurs-de-lys. The abstract foliates ran to ivy leaves more often than oak.

Search on "manuscript illumination" and refer to whichever century -- fourteenth, fifteenth, like that.

"Kestrel" as a leathern accessory or item of clothing is a new one on me. What is it? Google wasn't helping. Nearest I came was a model of hiking boot by Danner.

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:04 pm

thanks for the help.

Kestrel (costrel/coestrel)=leather canteen

http://clang.adkinssoftware.com/canteen ... %2001.html

http://www.geocities.com/ladysveva/Leat ... tions.html

Looked up manuscript illuminations- found a little bit, but will do more searching tommorow. thanks,

Aaron

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:40 am

Ah! I was wondering what you meant by kestrels -- since that's a word for a kind of falcon. :lol:

(He wants to leathertool ... on a bird?!?) :shock:

I've started up a linkspage on costrels & canteens -- it's at http://www.larsdatter.com/canteens.htm -- but it's not very detailed yet. You can find more information at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=532 too.

Here's another piece you might find inspiring: http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compa ... id=OBJ3727

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:41 pm

Thanks Karen.

I saw a page on Gaston Phoebus with closeups of all of the different kestrels used. am I using the right terminology for these leather canteens- kestrel/costrel/coestrels?

Thanks,

Aaron

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:04 pm

Costrels.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:33 pm

Costrels got stoppers, kestrels got talons.

Roaming charges -- bad cellphone contract. Roman charges -- have centurions.

And we still don't get French benefits -- quel fromage.

But if you wanna tool a Gothic-style raptor birdie on your costrel, who's gonna stop you?

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:05 pm

Cool

I just made my first Kestrel today!!!!!

In all I think it turned out pretty good-for a first try that is. it took only about 4 hours from pattern making to letting it dry. so right now it'd drying (probably for a day or two) but I think the shape came out well. when it's dry, I'm gonna put the pitch mixture in it, then dye it. I did not tool this one.

I'm going to make several tommorow- mostly tooled, some gourd shaped, some like the "Mary Rose" shape. Clang here on the Archive did a MAGNIFICENT job of replicating it.

Question though- I was reading somewhere that if I swivel knife my design, when I go to fill it with sand to stretch it, the cut areas might tear. do any of you see this as a problem? what if I cut less than the "required" half thickness of the leather? If it's still a problem, I guess I'll just trace the image and tool it without swivel knifing it. that would be difficult but cool still

Thanks,

Aaron

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:43 pm

I should think that leather sufficiently thick would give all the tear resistance you'd ever want -- say 11-12oz if you wanted to be downright paranoid? Belt weight anyway, 9-10oz. I've never run across anything about tooling carving needing to be half the leather thickness -- that may be a maximum depth, not a required one.

Of course, you're safer if it's all stamp work rather than carving. The only thing that does to the leather is compress it.

Now you're going to get a bunch of us interested in experimenting, as I don't believe we've tried carved and tooled bottles before.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:51 pm

Armoured Air Bear wrote:Cool I just made my first Kestrel today!!!!!

Aaron

How long did you have to sit on the egg?

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:59 pm

Armoured Air Bear wrote:Cool I just made my first Kestrel today!!!!!

In all I think it turned out pretty good-for a first try that is. it took only about 4 hours from pattern making to letting it dry. so right now it'd drying (probably for a day or two) but I think the shape came out well. when it's dry, I'm gonna put the pitch mixture in it, then dye it. I did not tool this one.

I'm going to make several tommorow- mostly tooled, some gourd shaped, some like the "Mary Rose" shape. Clang here on the Archive did a MAGNIFICENT job of replicating it.

Question though- I was reading somewhere that if I swivel knife my design, when I go to fill it with sand to stretch it, the cut areas might tear. do any of you see this as a problem? what if I cut less than the "required" half thickness of the leather? If it's still a problem, I guess I'll just trace the image and tool it without swivel knifing it. that would be difficult but cool still

Thanks,

Aaron

I can't speak for costrels yet, having not yet made any. However, I've done a fair bit of tooling on leather that then gets curved and stretched a little bit.

What I've noticed is not that the incisions represent a tearing hazard, but that they will tend to broaden a bit in the direction of any curvature.

It's the stamped work that suffers most from curving and stretching the piece. As you curve and stretch, the impressions stamped into the leather get pulled and evened back out - they fade, even disappear, depending on just how much you're stretching that bit of the leather.

Gavin

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:01 am

Armoured Air Bear wrote:Hi all,
I'm in the process of starting a TON of leather goods. I'm making belts, bags, pouches, kestrels, shoes...

this is getting me ready for Pennsic (and making stuff for others too).

well anyways, I'm looking for some period decorations to tool to the leather. whether it be floral, animals, figures...whatever. 14th cent. is best for this but other times will work as well. what I need is either pictures or links of period manuscripts/paintings/woodcuts/tooled leather that has examples of patterns that I could use to tool on leather.

I have searched on this in the past with little to no luck.

Thanks,

Aaron

I really recommend looking to the illuminations of the period to develop a sense of their decorative aesthetic. Many of these images survive and they provide insight into all sorts of things, including decorative motifs.

Gavin

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:25 am

Thanks for all the help.

As for the "required" cut half the thickness of the leather- I read it in a book once. it said to get really good clean details and good results carving. so thats how deep I usuall cut, but I'll have to do some expeirementing with the stretching part.

gonna look up some illuminations today and hopefully make a few more kestrels- this time tooled.

Thanks,

Aaron

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 pm

I think that a lighter touch with the swivel knife will produce more authentic-looking results and be less prone to any possible tearing or stretching. A stylus with a beveled egde might be closer to what was used. You can score the leather and get a more visible line without cutting in deeply.

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:48 pm

Thank you all for your advice.

Well I only got one kestrel done today. - the one shaped like the one found on the Mary Rose. all this week (after school) I'll be making many more of the "gourd" shaped ones. these ones will have tooling. I think I'm gonna sell a bunch of them, and make a few for myself and my Dad for at Pennsic.

I'll try and get some pics up of the kestrels I'm making and see if anyone would be interested in buying them.

Aaron

BTW- what is an average or a "good" size for these? what I mean by size is how much liquid they hold. the two I've made this weekend are about 16-20 oz and 30-36 oz. gonna measure for sure though.

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:38 pm

okay I finally found some cool floral tooling. now I have a question about it. when I swivel knife it in (very lightly) do I use a pear shader on the leaves/petals, and bevel it all? or do I skip the pear shader and just bevel all edges?

another question- when finished tooling, stretching/dyeing, should I paint the tooled portions? example red or brown background, then paint or gold leaf the tooled portions gold? (or other color)

Thanks,

Aaron

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:49 pm

Armoured Air Bear wrote:okay I finally found some cool floral tooling. now I have a question about it. when I swivel knife it in (very lightly) do I use a pear shader on the leaves/petals, and bevel it all? or do I skip the pear shader and just bevel all edges?

another question- when finished tooling, stretching/dyeing, should I paint the tooled portions? example red or brown background, then paint or gold leaf the tooled portions gold? (or other color)

Thanks,

Aaron

From the original pieces I've looked at (not many and all behind museum glass :cry:

), I can't say one way or the other about how much they did in terms of beveling, shading, etc.

I *think* it was Sir Gaston who said that his examination of original pieces showed that they did not bevel edges, but they did stamp backgounds using a small tube (I think a seeder might serve).

As to the coloring - again, surviving examples seem a bit limited, but it looks like painting and or gold leafing wouldn't be out of line. Sorry, can't offer any specific supporting citations.

Gavin

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:12 pm

yes i have that book

decorations to tool on leather?

decorations to tool on leather?

Re: decorations to tool on leather?