The Armour Archive

I stumbled on this video in Youtube. Check out the arrow tests against the linothorax and the Dendra Panoply, very cool.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Aznz9mj5grA

Wasn't there and ASCA that went along with the SCA?

Grace and Peace,

Jovian

Oh, yeah, I've seen that before. It has some VERY cool information, but also some not-so-good. The X-raying of the helmet at the beginning is fascinating. He says that the helmet is 2-1/2 pounds, about the average for that style as far as I've seen. But he also says it's generally 2mm thick, which can't be right--my repro is made from 1mm bronze, and weighs FIVE pounds. So something is wrong. I expect the weight given is right--much easier to toss something on a scale than to do accurate thickness measurements on something like that.

They also keep saying "Late Bronze Age", but that is an IRON Age helmet which happens to be made of bronze (as most were at that time). Also, those "spear holes" on the first breastplate are more likely nail holes, from when the piece was hung up as a trophy.

They keep saying that these weapons from c. 1500 BC are some of the oldest bronze weapons known, which is wrong by a thousand years! They're very right that the weapons are very strong and fully functional, and that the metalworkers were geniuses.

The first reenactor is gorgeous and knows his stuff, but it is NOT Trojan War era gear--it's Classical! Much later (even if the screwed-up chronology of the Bronze Age is fixed by chopping the usual dates by 300 years).

Nice-looking linothorax, but there is no evidence for a leather core, and no evidence that it was glued. The Mycenaean versions were clearly just quilted, as can be seen in frescoes.

Their figure-8 shield is awful, and predates the Trojan War by roughly 200 years. Really crappy "boar tusk" helmet--they didn't even use boar tusks! I did.

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/BThlm10.jpg

And they didn't overlap the pieces, gads. No wonder it didn't work... GOOD reproductions of the Dendra armor prove that it weighs no more than 30 pounds and is reasonably mobile. "Armor-piercing bodkin"...

Well, I shouldn't be nit-picking, sorry! It could have been a much better show. But if it has sparked your interest in that general era, COOL! I'll be happy to babble more, or you can come over to the Bronze Age Center and get a real eye-full:

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Center/index.php?

Khaire,

Matthew

Hi Matt,

I've got your website bookmark cuz it's a cool one. I'd like to try my hand at some Greek/Trojan arms and armor. Mostly for my world history class, but also for me.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jovian

I'm still watching it, but I noticed some neat stuff. Many of the swords/spears they have shown so far have the tips broken off. That is probably from use, because they are still from a mostly thrusting era. The swords and spears with those large central ridges would have only limited effectiveness for cutting. Many of the swords that have been found broken off at the tang, and are attached to the hilts with 3-5 rivets were used for cutting, but it is hard on the metal, and the handles break off.

They look like bullet holes to me.

Matthew Amt wrote:He says that the helmet is 2-1/2 pounds, about the average for that style as far as I've seen. But he also says it's generally 2mm thick, which can't be right--my repro is made from 1mm bronze, and weighs FIVE pounds.

He may have mixed up his pounds and kilograms since he used different measurements.

Alcyoneus wrote:He may have mixed up his pounds and kilograms since he used different measurements.

It's possible, but the math doesn't seem to work. Two and a half kilograms should be 5-1/2 pounds. But 2mm thick bronze should be closer to 10 pounds! And of the original helmets I've seen weights for, most were 2 to 3 pounds, maybe as much as 4. So I think they're mis-estimating the thickness somehow.

Khaire,

Matthew

Many bronze helmets have some of the edges folded over creating a double thickness. Few people have deep-throated micrometers so the only thickness measurements they can do are around the edges. I agree with Matt's assessment of that video. The arrows tests are worthless since neither target is even close to the original items.

What exactly is worng with the shield? Since I have no idea what constitutes a proper figure 8 shield construction.

The guy in the lino-kit, I don't think was being presented as Homeric. They were mentioning the Persian wars at that point.

The linothorax may be wrong in construction, but it does prove that they at least HAD the tech available to make extraordinary armour.

What were the years of use for the lino? And is the only evidence we have for the Mycenian one? What year?

What makes the Dendra tests worthless? It was plates of bronze. The overlap shouldn't matter just sitting still on a stand, should it?

The guy who rags about the heavy 35 pound armour should go into the desert with the 100 pounds our troops carry nowadays. I'm pretty sure they're mobile, and pretty sure 35 is lighter than 100.

Hell, he should just try 35# of anything on. it just aint that bad. I know, I'm carrying an extra fifty right now...lol

thanks,
Christopher

RenJunkie wrote:What exactly is worng with the shield? Since I have no idea what constitutes a proper figure 8 shield construction.

Well, it had a nice wicker base, but even that is not firmly documented. And even if the real ones HAD a wicker base, it might have been done from strips of ash or something, rather than cane or reed or whatever. The covering looked like painted canvas, whereas the originals are often shown with a cowhide pattern. They may have had more than one layer, since that's what Homer describes for later shields (Trojan War era).

Actually, I wasn't even going to mention the arrow tests, since even these somewhat questionable reconstructions stopped the arrows! My best guess is that the original armor and shields would have been much better.

The guy in the lino-kit, I don't think was being presented as Homeric. They were mentioning the Persian wars at that point.

Yes, but they were kind of vague sometimes when they were skipping back and forth. It would be very misleading or confusing to someone who didn't know better.

What were the years of use for the lino? And is the only evidence we have for the Mycenian one? What year?

Homer mentions the linothorax more than once, and there are clear depictions of quilted Mycenaean tunics. So you're talking at least 1000 BC.

What makes the Dendra tests worthless? It was plates of bronze. The overlap shouldn't matter just sitting still on a stand, should it?

As far as we can guess, what they used was the Indian-made Deepeeka version of the Dendra cuirass (or panoply, pronounced PAN-o-plee...). And Deepeeka doesn't use anything as hard as a historical bronze with 5 to 10 percent tin. So the original armor would have been noticeably stronger. But again, even the cheap repro stopped the arrow!

Their "boar tusk" helmet, on the other hand, was personally insulting...

The guy who rags about the heavy 35 pound armour should go into the desert with the 100 pounds our troops carry nowadays. I'm pretty sure they're mobile, and pretty sure 35 is lighter than 100.

You got it! I think there was a mention that the Dendra armor was used by a charioteer, but they didn't have to moan for so long about how it would have been impossible to take the heat and weight. Heck, a balanced show might have had a modern veteran trying on the Dendra armor and expressing his surprise about how light and cool it was by comparison! No heavy boots or fatigues to trap the heat, good mobility of all the plates, etc. THAT would make a good show!

Khairete,

Matthew

What poundage were Trojan/Classical Greek bows?

The archer in the video was using a 160# bow with steel bodkins. I would have liked to see them use bronze arrowheads and a more accurately powered bow.

Did anyone else see the rope around his waist while using the hide shield? No wonder it didn't flop around. Is there any evidence for using a rope or strap like that? I would think it would get in the way.

Grace and Peace,

Jovian

FWIW my Dendra panoply reconstruction weighs just over 25kg including the helmet and gorget and it is likely to be a little heavier than the original when it was in use.