The Armour Archive

Got some newly dyed brownish purple maroon, 100% wool. I was thinking about a pair of stout fighting hose....but I dont want to push the "purplish envelope."

I steer away from purples like any good boy should (or was told too) Am I being paranoid? ... would this be okay for a pair of late 14th/ 15th century wool hose? (I promise to wear a long houppelande )

Signed,
Purple People Dyer

Durasteel Corporation wrote:I steer away from purples like any good boy should

Why?

Eh, because Im not a textile guru....always been of the mind that deep purples were the general domain of blue bloods.... I mean, Im not doing a muggle interpretation here, just leary of over stepping the station/class.

I think that outside of Imperial rome, you're OK. Could be wrong though.

If its really a deep, deep purple that looks like it took excessive amounts to dye and more to maintain, then avoid it.

As I understand, contrary to popular belief, lighter shades of purple/violet were fairly commonplace as they were simple to make with madder and woad- both often readily accessible to the commonfolk. Someone should verify this though.. I remember reading it somewhere...

If its brownish, then its probably alright. In any case, it might be a good idea to let it fade a bit/bleach slightly in the sun.

-Dan

3 ways i'm aware of achieving purple

lichen dyes - various shades (none of them mega-deep) these tend to be regional (as the lichen does not travel well, iiaci (if i am correctly informed)) and as far as i am aware nothing that the guilds in the C15th touched (indicates unstable probably not as colurfast as the 'traditional' dies). Turns up on wikelbander a lot for some reason.

woad overdyed with madder - not cheap, a good woad bath is challenging and to then overdye with madder takes skill and a great dela of dyestuff. To make a good deep purple you have to start with a deep blue (and the recieved wisdom is that was ot cheap). One of St Cuthbert's vestments is done up this way.

(i just lifted this form elsewhere, saves my poor addled memory, the numbers look right to me)
“Tyrian Purple,â€

My understanding is that imperial purple, as worn by the romans and those fancy pants that arose shortly afte the fall of rome was more of a maroon color or closer to maroon than violet. And yes it was produced from tons of rotted shellfish.

Anyone that could afford armor, could probably afford good hosen in practically any color they wanted (I would think). I remember a time back when someone complained about another attending an event in hot pink. And was baraged with period illustrations/paintings of women wearing a multitude of pinks.

In Medeival Underwear III: Chosen Hosen, the writer has compiled a list of hosen colors that appear in artwork, which lists each color in the order of frequency. Purple has an occurance of 1%, but there is evidently precedant for purple hose (though the source and timeframe are unlisted).
-Cian

Anyone that could afford armor, could probably afford good hosen in practically any color they wanted (I would think).

Sound logic Cian. Well put.

didn't sumpturary (sp?) laws govern who could wear what colors? I remember purples being reserved, but that may be an urban legend

Purple is good...

Note the presence of three late 14th century gentlemen fighting in purple clothing and one in what is coming dangerously close to pink.

sha-ul wrote:didn't sumpturary (sp?) laws govern who could wear what colors? I remember purples being reserved, but that may be an urban legend

Well remember that sumptuary laws were often widely ignored.

Gregoire de Lyon wrote:

Note the presence of three late 14th century gentlemen fighting in purple clothing and one in what is coming dangerously close to pink.

Ive thought of this, but Im hesitant to use art color for textile color...both also fade/age differently. Besides they could almost be wearing brown that is simply a degree lighter or with a reddish tint to the artists pigment. Certainly something to think about, thought I wouldnt bank on it...not for anything under a reasonably well to do knight/noble.

Gregoire de Lyon wrote:Note the presence of three late 14th century gentlemen fighting in purple clothing and one in what is coming dangerously close to pink.

He's probably homosapiens.

I chuckle because I sometimes think of myself as a hairy metrosexual who enjoys getting dirty. I like Sex and the City.....and purple.....and I look like a seven foot tall burly chewbacca....Im, Im soo...so confused.

Durasteel Corporation wrote:Ive thought of this, but Im hesitant to use art color for textile color...both also fade/age differently. Besides they could almost be wearing brown that is simply a degree lighter or with a reddish tint to the artists pigment. Certainly something to think about, thought I wouldnt bank on it...not for anything under a reasonably well to do knight/noble.

I understand your point, however, there is brown represented in the picture as a recognizable brown and red as a recognizable red. The red, in particular, is telling as red pigments are the most susceptible to fading and as we can clearly see, this red remains quite vibrant.

Your final sentence would indicate to me that you had made up your mind on this matter before asking the question. We see at least one archer in this image wearing purple ina parti-colored jupon. If the, admittedly artistic, evidence presented is not sufficient to answer your question in the affirmative, what would be?

You can get an idea of what colors were particularly expensive to dye (and therefore popular!) from wills. A lady would give her black dress to her eldest daughter, her red one to the next in line and the rust colored dress went to her servant, etc. There's a fairly standard hierarchy of colors and fabrics. In the late 15th century at least black (which required multiple dye baths to get good and dark and was the most popular color for hose I believe), blue and red were the prized dyes. I'm told purple was a difficult color to achieve, I'm not a dyer myself so I just trust what they tell me but as far as I know not prohibited at the time.

Gregoire de Lyon wrote:

Durasteel Corporation wrote:Ive thought of this, but Im hesitant to use art color for textile color...both also fade/age differently. Besides they could almost be wearing brown that is simply a degree lighter or with a reddish tint to the artists pigment. Certainly something to think about, thought I wouldnt bank on it...not for anything under a reasonably well to do knight/noble.

I understand your point, however, there is brown represented in the picture as a recognizable brown and red as a recognizable red. The red, in particular, is telling as red pigments are the most susceptible to fading and as we can clearly see, this red remains quite vibrant.

Your final sentence would indicate to me that you had made up your mind on this matter before asking the question. We see at least one archer in this image wearing purple ina parti-colored jupon. If the, admittedly artistic, evidence presented is not sufficient to answer your question in the affirmative, what would be?

Its about interpretation and misinterpretation.

Im simply saying I think its better to be cautious in assuming color from a totally different medium presumably vellum vs. wool/linen would be the same shades or tones.

Similarly, lets be honest...the artist was probably not drawing the battle scene during the battle...and I dont think, as far as I know, the the Medieval skyline looked like geometic earthtone patterns (unless the artist was tripping). So, assuming the artist drew the scene in closed doors...and assuming his color palette was not the same tone/shades as that which would be used for textiles (never mind texture as this affects lighting).....Im only saying that while this is fruit, its oranges and....tangerines. We cant be totally sure the color is matched.

From the picture I believe it is clear that the sky used to be made of ugly upholstery fabric.

AriAnson wrote:From the picture I believe it is clear that the sky used to be made of ugly upholstery fabric.

the 70s had more impact than we realize