A thought or two

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

One thing to keep in mind about research, theories, etc...
When thinking about how you might feel about something, remember that we are a bunch of wussies compared to our ancestors.

Quite true.

[Halvgrimr]

One thing to keep in mind about research, theories, etc...
When thinking about how you might feel about something, remember that we are a bunch of wussies compared to our ancestors.

Quite true.

But we also need to remember they werent as niave as alot of folks tend to beleive they were.

They were as smart as we are (if not more so)

If something didnt work well (as I suggest sea chests wouldnt) they were clever enough to come up with a solution


Halv
still hunting for that article

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

One thing to keep in mind about research, theories, etc...
When thinking about how you might feel about something, remember that we are a bunch of wussies compared to our ancestors.

Quite true.

But we also need to remember they werent as niave as alot of folks tend to beleive they were.

They were as smart as we are (if not more so)

If something didnt work well (as I suggest sea chests wouldnt) they were clever enough to come up with a solution


Halv
still hunting for that article

Oh ofcourse not! They were VERY practical.

[nathan]

Sure, riveted is better than butted, however, I'm pretty certain butted is better than skin.

Modern steel butted mail yes, but i challenge you to make butted mail form thin pieces of wrought iron wire and it not fall apart form it's own weight.

So you need to make it thicker and thus heavier. Thus consuming more metal and thus probably increasing it's cost beyond that of a riveted shirt. Yes riveted mail is labour intensive but the reality is that during the medieval period labour is comparativeley cheap where compex raw materials (such as wire) are not.

Riveting mail is a relatively unskilled task (just look at how mail is made in india/pakistan it's outsourced to unskilled home workers, the tools to make it and the links are made in factory but assemby is out to uber-cheap labour). Once you have the tools to make the right shape (hard thus skilled) then the physical operations are very simple.

You will find comments about butted mail in some of literature, much of this seems to be misinterpretation of badly corroded links (where somebody sees the edge of the riveted section and thinks it indicates a cut edge) re-examination by people who know what they are looking at (Erik D. Schmid for one but also Ian Bottomly formerly of the RA) and/or X-Ray analysis tends to show these are also riveted (main exception i'm aware of is the early celtic stuff).

N.

[Andrew Young]

Modern steel butted mail yes, but i challenge you to make butted mail form thin pieces of wrought iron wire and it not fall apart form it's own weight.

I have made butted mail from soft iron and it held up okay.

So you need to make it thicker and thus heavier. Thus consuming more metal and thus probably increasing it's cost beyond that of a riveted shirt. Yes riveted mail is labour intensive but the reality is that during the medieval period labour is comparativeley cheap where compex raw materials (such as wire) are not.

I dont think it would have consumed that much.


We should also insert the concept of smaller and thus lighter byrnies and coifs vs. huge hauberks.

.

[Mord]

Modern steel butted mail yes, but i challenge you to make butted mail form thin pieces of wrought iron wire and it not fall apart form it's own weight.

I have made butted mail from soft iron and it held up okay.

So you need to make it thicker and thus heavier. Thus consuming more metal and thus probably increasing it's cost beyond that of a riveted shirt. Yes riveted mail is labour intensive but the reality is that during the medieval period labour is comparativeley cheap where compex raw materials (such as wire) are not.

I dont think it would have consumed that much.


We should also insert the concept of smaller and thus lighter byrnies and coifs vs. huge hauberks.

.

I'm just beginning to investigate iron production from various places (Iceland, Norway, A-S England, Frankia, etc) during the early middle ages, so take this statement with a caveat. Iron was an important economic element during this period. Without the ability to smelt and smith iron, tools, farming implements, and other stuff of daily life would have been either impossible to have, or not have lasted as long.

However, I haven't seen any evidence about the amount of iron produced from any one site.

As for mail-making, I see one of 2 scenarios:

A. The skilled singular craftsman--he makes the mail from drawing the wire to the final product. Such a craftsman needs to be supported in a secure environment--probably a large manioral settlement with available wealth.

B. A semi-workshop/semi-industrial setting with a division of the labor and an overseer. This scenario requires the same manorial settlement with available wealth.

C. A combination of A&B. The overseer is a skilled craftsman with employees/apprentices working for him.

However, our understanding labor in this time is probably very small.

Mord.

[Andrew Young]

Id certainly love to hear more about your research Mord.

Im a Dane myself. I love such northerly things.

[Clinker]

As for mail-making, I see one of 2 scenarios:

A. The skilled singular craftsman--he makes the mail from drawing the wire to the final product. Such a craftsman needs to be supported in a secure environment--probably a large manioral settlement with available wealth.

B. A semi-workshop/semi-industrial setting with a division of the labor and an overseer. This scenario requires the same manorial settlement with available wealth.



Mord.[/quote]


The economic circumstances Mord mentions are exactly why you do not see mail made in Iceland. Those guys were farmers and fishermen, and while not all men were small holders, the set up of manufacturing beyond homely crafts was beyond them. No political organization to need tools of violence. Not enough population to put valuable manpower to work for a trade that didn't have a lot of buyers. Especially when all materials had to be shipped in too. I cannot recall any mention of mining or ore refining in any Saga either. Easier to pick mail up while traveling abroad, as so many rich Icelanders did.

I've been rereading Egils saga, and Njals Saga, and most fights and skirmishes do not involve more armor than a shield and sometimes, a helmet. Occasionally mention is made of a mail coat or "fully armored' but it is as something that is uncommon enough to merit mention.

I suspect that in a relatively unpopulated land, with rather low intensity warfare, and most of that in pursuit of legal judgements; that expensive mail was just not seen as necessary. Unless you got it from warring overseas for foreign kings, it wasn't a purchase anyone would really need. Mail is a tool of the professional fighting man , not a farmer, not even a gentleman farmer. Professional fighters did not live in Iceland, they went abroad to ply their trade. Iceland did not have the political class for warfare, or the population to carry it out.

Mail in Iceland is rather like an Elephant Gun on the farm. You might be able to afford it, but it isn't useful enough to bother.

[Mord]

Id certainly love to hear more about your research Mord.

Im a Dane myself. I love such northerly things.

I'm considering a paper, and have even done a short outline of the project. With or without direct empirical evidence (or at least reliable info), I fear I'm taking on something of a monster. Basically, I have to gather info from a variety of sources and a variety of places. This includes how we think mail was made, the nature of trade (Wickam's & Hodge's "emporia"), Iron production (in Iceland, Norway, Frankia, etc), the making of arms and armor (in relation to trade, btw), Icelandic social history, and remaining extant mail of the period.

The first problem seems to be the order of presentation. I will probably start with the making of mail, and extant peices.

Mord.