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Is this a real faceplate helm, and where is it preserved?
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:50 pm
by brunoG
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:05 pm
by Ernst
I believe the helmet is in the Netherlands Army Museum? It has been discussed before, perhaps here or the 75Years Yahoo group?
Edit: The helm was discussed on 75 Years around Sept. 11, 2000, though the pictures have been removed. It is in the Netherlands Army Museum in Delft, and was labelled at that time as a "fifteenth century" helmet for foot combat. It's either 13th century or a 19th century fake.
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:22 am
by Konstantin the Red
Yes, they say unattributed. So, no find-place, nor provenance.
The second pic in the trio is captioned as an early Topfhelm in pic of Roland, "drawing his sword and sounding his horn," in a window in Notre-Dame cathedral, France, 1225.
The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century." That "BEK" word is "century," and for convenience you can ignore extra letters following those three, which are case-endings -- where English would use prepostions. You will see many uses of the term in Russian-language sites of this kind. Seldom will you see exact years, three or four digits with an upside-down L following the numbers -- the letter "G" for "GODA." But maybe now and then, when we've really got a reliable date.
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:52 am
by brunoG
Konstantin the Red wrote:Yes, they say unattributed. So, no find-place, nor provenance.
The second pic in the trio is captioned as an early Topfhelm in pic of Roland, "drawing his sword and sounding his horn," in a window in Notre-Dame cathedral, France, 1225.
The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century." That "BEK" word is "century," and for convenience you can ignore extra letters following those three, which are case-endings -- where English would use prepostions. You will see many uses of the term in Russian-language sites of this kind. Seldom will you see exact years, three or four digits with an upside-down L following the numbers -- the letter "G" for "GODA." But maybe now and then, when we've really got a reliable date.
So my wife just
pretends to know Russian ... tx
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:25 am
by RandallMoffett
Bruno,
I think Kon was talking about russian word structure itself not your wife's russian. He is just saying that the ending of the words change where as in English we would have I, you, he/she, we, them, etc. before the verb in other languages its built in at the end of them.
It is an odd helmet to be sure. I'd lvoe to think it real as there are none others I know of from the time but some of the look is a bit 'off' to me.
RPM
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:39 am
by Norman
Konstantin the Red wrote:
The third, "early Topfhelm, with small forepiece or visor, first half of the 13th century."
early Topfhelm with small "nazatilnik"
zatilok is the back of the neck - so they are talking about the back protection not the visor.
Visor is usualy Zabralo, Litchina.
On that site they use Maska (mask) in descriptions higher on the page.
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:52 am
by Konstantin the Red
Thanks, Norman. I really do have to pull my dictionaries back out of storage, I see. Heck, I wonder if I'd've even recognized "MACKA" as a visor off the top of my gulliver...
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm
by Andrew Young
Nice page, thanks for posting.
I am also leery of pretty much knowing whats out there and then suddenly learning of new pieces. (museum stuffers???----who knows.)
But then again so much from eastern europe and russia and china has been generally hard to get to as a result of the coldwar etc......that we are not just starting to see hints and glimpses of their archeological footprint.
We also tend to have a very coffee table western anglo armour point of view so its sometimes hard to shake this.
