The Armour Archive

I have a White Mountain Armoury Shovel visored helm. The skull of the helm is very reminiscent of a Basinet, however the visor is quite Sugarloaf looking. I think its a beautiful helm, and it fits me magnificently, but i have had a hard time documenting it.

Here are pictures so you know what i am talking about






Has anyone come across documentation or iconography of this type of helmet? What time period? Ive heard 100 years war, and early 14th century italian design... No documentation to back it up.

I have seen sugarloafs that look a little like it from the early 14th century, but not with such a refined shape of the skull and neck section. nor do they have an attached aventail. Later helmets didnt seem to have visors like this that i have seen. Ive even considered making a pigface visor for it as well, but would rather not if i can find some historical reference for the design.

Any help would be appreciated, and i wont be hurt if im told that its a blend of time periods and designs.

Thank you so much!

Cheers!

I believe I recall seeing helmets similar to that in this manuscript:

http://posner.library.cmu.edu/Posner/books/pages.cgi?call=741.64_H35H_1954&layout=vol0/part0/copy0&file=0070

I don't have time right now to flip through and find it for you, but it is a nice manuscript to go through.

Bartok

That, is a sexy helm

Milan H wrote:I have a White Mountain Armoury Shovel visored helm. The skull of the helm is very reminiscent of a Basinet, however the visor is quite Sugarloaf looking. I think its a beautiful helm, and it fits me magnificently, but i have had a hard time documenting it.

Here are pictures so you know what i am talking about






Has anyone come across documentation or iconography of this type of helmet? What time period? Ive heard 100 years war, and early 14th century italian design... No documentation to back it up.

I have seen sugarloafs that look a little like it from the early 14th century, but not with such a refined shape of the skull and neck section. nor do they have an attached aventail. Later helmets didnt seem to have visors like this that i have seen. Ive even considered making a pigface visor for it as well, but would rather not if i can find some historical reference for the design.

Any help would be appreciated, and i wont be hurt if im told that its a blend of time periods and designs.

Thank you so much!

Cheers!

There are definitely several that look similar in there, such as on fol 54, 55, 59 and 40. Seems like I have seen something along those lines in some early 14th cent italian illuminations but I can't remember where.

I would suggest foremost to get in touch with Master Magnus and see if you can find out where he got the inspiration, as it may take you to a direct reference.

I was going to suggest Holkham bible, as well for the visor (f.40) . But, in the Holkham (circa 1327) the helms appear to be more top pointed (as was the tendancy prior to around 1350), and they don't appear to be wearing aventails, but rather chain collars or camails (one of the guys on the ground in a f.40 image has his visor flipped back and you can see he's wearing a chain camail as the chain is framing his face beneath the helm). I also like the evidence of what appear to be plated gorgets on their necks. (Not germain to your question, though).

There's also a brass effigy of Sir Hugh Hastings (c 1347), which has a small miniature of a knight (3/4 side view) with a bascinet, an aventail and a visor (it could be classified as shovel faced, but it kicks out a little towards the bottom, so an argument for a globose faceplate could be made. But the side pivots are identical to yours and the face plates shape is still very shallow in profile). This images bascinet, though also appears to be a center-point type, not a back point.

The more looking around I do, the more convinced I am that helms didn't start eeking toward the rear until halfway through the century. (Just as I say that, I flip to a picture of Geoffry Luttrell where he's clearly illustrated with a back point bascinet, which dates to 1345 at the latest)

Just because you don't see a helmet that looks exactly like that, doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable amalgum of helmets from around the time. It's not like you're fitting an armet visor to a spangenhelm. At most, you're fitting a 1330's french visor to a 1345 bascinet. But then, I'm just in the SCA, not a reenactor.

-Cian

The romance of Alexander has atleast one, folio 42 (verso).

http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msbodl264

lorenzo2 wrote:There are definitely several that look similar in there, such as on fol 54, 55, 59 and 40. Seems like I have seen something along those lines in some early 14th cent italian illuminations but I can't remember where.

Just a clarification they are folios 34, 35, 39 and 40

The 3s look like 5s

If you look around through early to mid 14th art you will likely find several depictions as they are not too uncommon. The line between developed great helm and bascinet can be pretty hard sometimes to make out though. The mid 14th you see more skull like this, though earlier art shows them as well, one of the Holkham knights has a 3/4 point on his helmet with a similar visor. Some are more centre point some more pointed but in the end they are all likely the same helmet. Another place to look is the Taymouth Hours.

RPM

Thanks a lot for the information guys. This is all extremely helpful. I have looked through a ton of art, and mostly what i was seeing were the hinged bevors. The imagery presented here does help fill in some gaps with my understanding of the development and transition of helmet designs in the early and mid 14th c.

Thanks a lot, its been most enlightening!

Cheers!

Take a look at the Queen Mary Psalter. There are some very developed great helms and a few are near impossible to determine if they are in fact great helms with a almost bascinet top and visor or are early bascinets.

RPM