query about gallowglass armour
Moderator: Glen K
query about gallowglass armour
This is an effigy of Christopher St. Lawrence, 1st Baron of Howth with his wife Lady Plunkett. He died in 1462. Does anyone know what this style of armour is called, or how it might have been constructed ?
I'm quite confused, as it looks like iron bands, that could be riveted to a vertical leather harness strap. But there are no rivets detailed.
http://livinghistory.ie/community/downl ... php?id=118
John
I'm quite confused, as it looks like iron bands, that could be riveted to a vertical leather harness strap. But there are no rivets detailed.
http://livinghistory.ie/community/downl ... php?id=118
John
- Chris Gilman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Sylmar CA.
- Contact:
I would suggest a quilted gambason, not metal.
Chris
My work:
http://www.gilmangraphics.com/projects/ ... index.html
Diligent Dwarves Blog:
http://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/
My work:
http://www.gilmangraphics.com/projects/ ... index.html
Diligent Dwarves Blog:
http://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/
I'm gonna' disagree Chris. I think we are looking at a coat of plates. It's sort of like the ones in the mid 14th c. German art, but with narrower lames.
Mac
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 28806
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
- Contact:
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 39578
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:00 pm
- Derian le Breton
- Archive Member
- Posts: 15679
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Chris Gilman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Sylmar CA.
- Contact:
I guess I could see that. It seems odd there are no breaks in the plates (other than were we can't see) because I would think the strips would get easily deformed being so thin and so long.Mac wrote:I'm gonna' disagree Chris. I think we are looking at a coat of plates. It's sort of like the ones in the mid 14th c. German art, but with narrower lames.
Mac
I don’t know how accurate Eduard Wagner’s drawings are, but he has illustrated a padded garment of this construction that looked plausible to me and I was thinking this could be that.
Chris
My work:
http://www.gilmangraphics.com/projects/ ... index.html
Diligent Dwarves Blog:
http://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/
My work:
http://www.gilmangraphics.com/projects/ ... index.html
Diligent Dwarves Blog:
http://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/
I'd be more inclined to go with the cotun idea, if there wasn't mail obviously under the armour in question. Aketon/Cotuns were usually worn solo, or under armour, yes ?
Just thinking about over-mail-padding; I've seen it drawn on some 12thC knights, where there is a light aketon under mail, then a heavy sleeveless gambeson over the mail. Could this explain why he's not wearing similar armour on the arms ? Heavy sleeveless gambeson over mail & aketon, then plate arm pieces ?
Mac, do you have any references for the 14thC german art you mentioned ? I'd like to check it out.
John, who doesn't have a 15thC harness yet, and would love to be able to make something up based on St. Laurence's and Bermingham's armours ( http://www.tara.tcd.ie/handle/2262/12021 )
Just thinking about over-mail-padding; I've seen it drawn on some 12thC knights, where there is a light aketon under mail, then a heavy sleeveless gambeson over the mail. Could this explain why he's not wearing similar armour on the arms ? Heavy sleeveless gambeson over mail & aketon, then plate arm pieces ?
Mac, do you have any references for the 14thC german art you mentioned ? I'd like to check it out.
John, who doesn't have a 15thC harness yet, and would love to be able to make something up based on St. Laurence's and Bermingham's armours ( http://www.tara.tcd.ie/handle/2262/12021 )
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
That is quite distinctive.
What do you think the helmet is?
Could this guy have visited Lithuania?
I saw some photos of Lithuanian reeenactors just the other day who supposedly knew what they were doing (and did match drawings in Gorelik's work) who wore a "Laminar" armour -- armour made of bands vaguley along the idea of a Lorica Segmentata.
And you wouldn't see rivets, if riveted at the top and overlapped downwards, the plate above would hide the rivets of the plate below.
I'd like to know more.
What do you think the helmet is?
Could this guy have visited Lithuania?
I saw some photos of Lithuanian reeenactors just the other day who supposedly knew what they were doing (and did match drawings in Gorelik's work) who wore a "Laminar" armour -- armour made of bands vaguley along the idea of a Lorica Segmentata.
And you wouldn't see rivets, if riveted at the top and overlapped downwards, the plate above would hide the rivets of the plate below.
I'd like to know more.
Norman
SilkRoadDesign Arts- http://www.srdarts.com
Armour of the Silk Road http://www.archive.org(www.geocities.com/normlaw)
JewishWarriors - http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors
Red Kaganate - http://www.redkaganate.org
Email kaganate&yahoo.com
SilkRoadDesign Arts- http://www.srdarts.com
Armour of the Silk Road http://www.archive.org(www.geocities.com/normlaw)
JewishWarriors - http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors
Red Kaganate - http://www.redkaganate.org
Email kaganate&yahoo.com
It's described as a CoP in John Hunt's work, which has several examples of this style in Ireland, including this same effigy.
Being Ireland, and primarily Anglo-Irish, the styles were a bit behind the times for the equivalent periods. These CoPs appear into the early 15th century, along with some really awesome Corinthian-esque bascinet/barbute hybrid helms. (Well, okay, only two effigies, and two actual finds in the field, but good enough for me!)
I can get some more photos out of Hunt's book, or get you the text corresponding to this period in the photos of the Irish effigies, if you'd like, but not until tomorrow some time.
Being Ireland, and primarily Anglo-Irish, the styles were a bit behind the times for the equivalent periods. These CoPs appear into the early 15th century, along with some really awesome Corinthian-esque bascinet/barbute hybrid helms. (Well, okay, only two effigies, and two actual finds in the field, but good enough for me!)
I can get some more photos out of Hunt's book, or get you the text corresponding to this period in the photos of the Irish effigies, if you'd like, but not until tomorrow some time.
Actually, this is a better image; taken from St. Canice's Cathedral in Kilkenny.
http://livinghistory.ie/download/file.p ... 02d8a04b53
In the above image, you can see the banding & rivets. http://livinghistory.ie/viewtopic.php?f ... 6951#p6951 had some interesting information;
John
http://livinghistory.ie/download/file.p ... 02d8a04b53
In the above image, you can see the banding & rivets. http://livinghistory.ie/viewtopic.php?f ... 6951#p6951 had some interesting information;
Hmm. Now I just need to find an armourer willing to take on such a project - my workshop is far too primitive.His corset comprises horizontal lames secured to a canvas or leather foundation by sliding rivets, and is worn in conjunction with plate arm and leg harness, a mail haubregeon and a mail pasaine to which circular pauldrons are attached." He also states that, "Surviving monuments confirm the archaic armour of this type predominated amongst the 'degenerate English' (Piers Butler, Earl of Ormond is used as an example) of Ireland until the 1550s.
John
The other effigy that Velen linked to http://livinghistory.ie/download/file.p ... 02d8a04b53 is wearing the sort of armor I usually think of as "brick work". It appears frequently in late 14th and early 15th c. art. It seams to be composed of rectangular plates about the size of playing cards, riveted to the outside of a foundation. You can find pictures of it used for body armors, aventails and faulds. There's a version of it using smaller plates which frequently appears as sabatons; especially the heels. Sabatons of this form are discussed here http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=95175 .
The attached pic. is from Pamela Porter's Medieval Warfare in Manuscripts, University of Toronto Press, 2000. It is thought to be from c.1415.
See also, the picture from the poems of Christine de Pisan, illustrated in Edge and Padock"s Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight (page 124) for a fauld made like this.
The attached pic. is from Pamela Porter's Medieval Warfare in Manuscripts, University of Toronto Press, 2000. It is thought to be from c.1415.
See also, the picture from the poems of Christine de Pisan, illustrated in Edge and Padock"s Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight (page 124) for a fauld made like this.
- Attachments
-
- brick-endine.JPG (74.51 KiB) Viewed 867 times
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
Sorry guys, I spoke too soon. I'm gonna' change my mind about that effigy. I looked at the picture again http://livinghistory.ie/download/file.p ... 02d8a04b53
The rivets are on the *lower* edges of the plates, and the upper plates overlap the lower ones. This means that the plates are riveted to the *inside* of a covering, and are not on the outside like my examples. This makes the armor more akin to the fragment from Chalcis in the Dean collection at the Met. 29.150.105
(NB. There are two different effigies under discussion here; one with apparently long narrow bands, and one with rectangular plates.)
The attached pic shows the Chalcis fragment inside out.
Mac
The rivets are on the *lower* edges of the plates, and the upper plates overlap the lower ones. This means that the plates are riveted to the *inside* of a covering, and are not on the outside like my examples. This makes the armor more akin to the fragment from Chalcis in the Dean collection at the Met. 29.150.105
(NB. There are two different effigies under discussion here; one with apparently long narrow bands, and one with rectangular plates.)
The attached pic shows the Chalcis fragment inside out.
Mac
- Attachments
-
- Chalcis.JPG (57.05 KiB) Viewed 846 times
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
https://www.facebook.com/BillyAndCharlie
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Except I don't belive the lower rivets on the "brickwork" armour necessitate that the plates are inside.
(you figure the artist would not have undercut the bands quite so straight if he was trying to show plates on the inside)
It could be that the lower rivets attach the plates to each other within a horizontal band to prevent them gapping as they move sideways as you bend.
I did something similar on my armour though substantaily higher on the plates (look closely at the rivets on the girdle's rectangular plates):
[img]http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/norm2.jpg[/img]
Oh, and I realy doubt the notion that there were any sliding rivets involved.
I made mine on a set of internal straps (like a more complex Lorica Segmentata)
There are a few rectangular plated corselets in the Russian and Mongol finds. I think mostly you have them attached to fabric but at least one Mongol suit is described as being on straps.
(you figure the artist would not have undercut the bands quite so straight if he was trying to show plates on the inside)
It could be that the lower rivets attach the plates to each other within a horizontal band to prevent them gapping as they move sideways as you bend.
I did something similar on my armour though substantaily higher on the plates (look closely at the rivets on the girdle's rectangular plates):
[img]http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/norm2.jpg[/img]
Oh, and I realy doubt the notion that there were any sliding rivets involved.
I made mine on a set of internal straps (like a more complex Lorica Segmentata)
There are a few rectangular plated corselets in the Russian and Mongol finds. I think mostly you have them attached to fabric but at least one Mongol suit is described as being on straps.
Norman
SilkRoadDesign Arts- http://www.srdarts.com
Armour of the Silk Road http://www.archive.org(www.geocities.com/normlaw)
JewishWarriors - http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors
Red Kaganate - http://www.redkaganate.org
Email kaganate&yahoo.com
SilkRoadDesign Arts- http://www.srdarts.com
Armour of the Silk Road http://www.archive.org(www.geocities.com/normlaw)
JewishWarriors - http://www.reocities.com/jewishwarriors
Red Kaganate - http://www.redkaganate.org
Email kaganate&yahoo.com
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 5623
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:01 am
Fascinating picture! What does it represent? At a guess, judicial combat with Mary and Michael sitting as judges?Piers Brent wrote: We also see this sort of exposed banding in Flemish illumination and maybe some paintings in the 15th century but it falls into that great quagmire with earlier armour representation in 15th century art from the Low Countries...
Memento, homo, quod cinis es! Et in cenerem reverentis!
- Andrew Young
- Archive Member
- Posts: 3350
- Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:08 pm
- Location: Maryland
- Contact:
Mac wrote:Sorry guys, I spoke too soon. I'm gonna' change my mind about that effigy. I looked at the picture again http://livinghistory.ie/download/file.p ... 02d8a04b53
The rivets are on the *lower* edges of the plates, and the upper plates overlap the lower ones. This means that the plates are riveted to the *inside* of a covering, and are not on the outside like my examples. This makes the armor more akin to the fragment from Chalcis in the Dean collection at the Met. 29.150.105
(NB. There are two different effigies under discussion here; one with apparently long narrow bands, and one with rectangular plates.)
The attached pic shows the Chalcis fragment inside out.
Mac
Just a follow up on that particular armour we discussed in another thread. Upon close inspection I noticed rings holding the actual plates together, see here in yellow circles:
Fine Armour and Reproductions
Living History & Accurately Formed 'SCA' Grade
-----online catalog coming this spring----
http://www.partsandtechnical.com
.
Living History & Accurately Formed 'SCA' Grade
-----online catalog coming this spring----
http://www.partsandtechnical.com
.