SCA-safe cloth armour in a persian style.

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:46 am

Hi

This is really just to gauge reactions to the idea, thanks in advance.

I searched and saw a few threads on the Linothorax, but I didn't see any answer. So do you guys think it would be possible to make something like this http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/ ... 0_8_7.html out of cloth, and have it be safe and legal? The metal bits would be metal but attached to, I'm thinking, thirty layers of medium weight cotton, heavily quilted, with the middle 18 layers possibly glued.

The entire armour would be made of 6 pieces - top-front, top-back, bottom-left, and bottom-right, and the two shoulders.

So, what do you think?

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:51 am

I think it would be legal and protect pretty well. But it would be hot. And heavy, especially after being soaked with sweat. ymmv

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:02 am

The under layers may work well but its hard to judge how ridged it would be over the kidney/shortribs untill you start construction.
30 may be excessive depending on fabric weight and other factors.
I would suggest asking the local fabric and costuming people for scraps and make some test pannels. Depending on how it turns out the mirror plates may not even be nessicary.
believe it or not wikipidea has a decent article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_armour
It probibly helps some that the main source is silk road armoury.
realize the region this armour was developed in was much drier then your average Pennsic cleaning/drying to remove fighter funk may be a concern.

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:13 am

Thanks.

Otto, heat shouldn't be a problem except in late summer. On the sweat issue, I am confident that gambeson will soak it up, as it was the first thing I made sca wise, and I, um, well, overbuilt it, just a bit.

losthelm, I made some test panels with some regular weight cotton drill I had and at six layers was fairly tough but still easily bendable. The drying part I guess will be the biggest problem especially as I would have to rivet on the disc.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:18 am

YMHoward wrote:Thanks.

Otto, heat shouldn't be a problem except in late summer. On the sweat issue, I am confident that gambeson will soak it up, as it was the first thing I made sca wise, and I, um, well, overbuilt it, just a bit.

losthelm, I made some test panels with some regular weight cotton drill I had and at six layers was fairly tough but still easily bendable. The drying part I guess will be the biggest problem especially as I would have to rivet on the disc.

Sounds like you know what your in for, LOL, I just remember having a Revival gambeson (old style) that was like a sauna if the temp went over 45 degrees .

Of course that thing bottoned up and didnt have any air circulation at all...of course i never wore it for more than three minutes at a time...I'm a wuss...

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:25 am

Mine is made from most of a queen size quilt - it weighs three kilos. It was great fun seeing the guys faces the first time I brought it for practice

.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:30 am

Why, Yes, I think you could.

This was made with heavy upholstery velvet over 4 layers of canvas and 30,000 gold plated split rivets (about 12,000 short of completing the pattern. In the last photo note pattern on shoulders verses skirt.)
The helmet is not SCA legal, but the armour could be.
This has been a favorite of mine for many years. The original inspiration is in the Wallace collection in London. We built this for Disneyâ€™s Haunted Mansion movie. (Which I wore in the film)
As far as heat, it is quite comfortable. As it is made from separate panels, front, back (w/ attached skirts) , shoulders, arms, it breaths nicely.

Benedek · Post by **Benedek** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:19 am

I'll have to get them from my other laptop. But I believe that Persian may not be the right description there. It looks like Mughal armour to me, at least that's how I've seen it listed everywhere I have seen. I could be wrong though.

I would bet it could be made SCA legal fairly easily. Just hidden armour underneath with minimal engineering problems.

nakos · Post by **nakos** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:29 pm

Check out Matt Amt's website http://www.larp.com/hoplite/index.html for details about his construction of an all fabric, glued armour. While the cuts and overall design maybe different the construction method of the base should still apply and give you some ideas on how to go about making the base armour.

Another theory is you could quilt the inner core(say four or five layers) and then attach outer pieces of glued fabric(say about four or five each). Kind of like making plywood out of fabric instead of wood.

As for making the helm legal, there are a few routes you could take. Put a low profile bargrille to the helm and then drape the chain over it or go with a full face and then drape the chain over it. You could even design it so that the face plate is removable for those demos or other times when your not fighting and want a more authentic look/construction.

@Chris 30,000

By that time you might just want to just buy a bedazzler

Nakos

AL · Post by AL » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:47 pm

Chris, the first armour posted is of a Moghul form that i'm familiar with. The one you've posted is interesting in that instead of the nearly ubiquitious khula khud or khul zhira type helmets usually found with Indo Persian armours this one has a helmet that has a very Tukrish flavor and is essentialy of Turk chichak style. Do you happen to know any more about this particular armour?

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:15 pm

Hey, guys, thanks for the replies.

Yeah the armour I posted is mughal, but it looks persian enough for me. It might not be one hundred percent period but it looks good and it is closer to a period form than the european style brigandine I usually borrow for fighting.

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:49 pm

That is, as always massively awesome, Chris.

Christopher

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:46 pm

AL wrote:Chris, the first armour posted is of a Moghul form that i'm familiar with. The one you've posted is interesting in that instead of the nearly ubiquitious khula khud or khul zhira type helmets usually found with Indo Persian armours this one has a helmet that has a very Tukrish flavor and is essentialy of Turk chichak style. Do you happen to know any more about this particular armour?

As I posted the original armour is in the Wallace collection in London. Pay no attention to the helmet, which was done separately. My books are at the office, I'll have to look it up later.

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:40 pm

Okay, I just did up some large test pieces, and the results are much better than I thought they would be, compared to the small piece I did last night.

The pieces measure seven by ten inches. I started by making five seperate six ply pieces, stitched approximately every five mm horizontally and vertically. These bent easily by hand but would only fall halfway if held up.

I then sewed three of the pieces together, with the same amount of stitching that I used to make the individual pieces. The result is very stiff and will spring back into position.

I think that if I made something that was thirty ply in the same way I did this it would be just about the same strength as hardened leather.

Edit: I forgot to say that the material I used was standard cotton drill, not very heavy.

ljlagnese · Post by **ljlagnese** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:05 am

Just a side note when discussing persian vs mughal

mughal is typically considered descendents of timourids which were turcomongols who conquered persia and their leader Temur-i-Lenk liked the persian court so that is what became favourable.

so I would think it could be easily considered the mughal armor was inspired by persian culture

AL · Post by AL » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:24 am

mughal is typically considered descendents of timourids which were turcomongols who conquered persia and their leader Temur-i-Lenk liked the persian court so that is what became favourable.

so I would think it could be easily considered the mughal armor was inspired by persian culture

Absolutely correct, ( Temur -i-Lenk = Temur the lame, derived from an arrow wound to the leg he recieved when a young man ) however mughul armour as a deriviative has a certain style that makes it slighlty different and therefore recongizable as such from other Indo-Persian armours, so while it is under the heading of Indo-Persian it is one of several subsets in it ( Bhtanese, Iranian ect. )

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:07 pm

Yeah,
That armour style is too distinctive to say it "looks Persian" -- it is a gorgeous and very much Indian design.

From what I can tell, it is a descendant of late Timurid brigandine and at that point in time it was in fact Brigandine with most commonly rectangular scales attached on three rivets and sandwiched between cloth.

If you want "SCA period" and Persian -- you need to look back to those and modify the style

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:38 pm

Yeah, I realize it looks mughal not persian but it gives me a starting point. Everything else I saw was maille and plate. This I think has maille in it but I can fiddle around a bit, and see what I come up with, and if I end up looking more Indian then Persian, so be it.

I chose this armour because it has only cost be sixty bucks worth of material so far and now all it will take is a heck of a lot of sewing - hours and hours of it. It's perfect for what I want - low money investment but that being made up for in time, which I have plenty of.

Plus, I just like the way it looks.

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:08 pm

How the hell did you get enough fabric for 30 layers of fabric for this outfit for so little?

YMHoward · Post by **YMHoward** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:34 pm

I went down to the local big chain material store while they were having a sale and asked the serving lady if I could get a discount if I took the entire bolt. I then got two bolts for a total of 25 paid for metres but in actual material about 28 meters. I paid 2 bucks a metre, and the other ten bucks were for a needle that will go through that many layers and not bend or break, and lots of thread.

Edit to add: The material was 60 inches wide.
Edit 2 to add: I also already had some 12-15 metres that I had got for free elsewhere which will be the outer six layers on each side.

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:29 am

Wow...quite a find.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:45 am

YMHoward wrote:Yeah, I realize it looks mughal not persian but it gives me a starting point. Everything else I saw was maille and plate. This I think has maille in it but I can fiddle around a bit, and see what I come up with, and if I end up looking more Indian then Persian, so be it.

Yes, the Mughal design is definitely very cool
However -
If you want an older more Persian look (ie: SCA period Timurid) -
They did wear all-cloth quilted coats - this would be a standard long Halat (like a bathrobe essentialy) - pretty much the same as a heavy gambezon.
The Mughal armour you are looking at is based on a Brigandine.
To stick with that theme but take it back to its Timurid roots -
* make the nail pattern less abstract -- pretend there are actual rectangular plates inside (say 3" high 2" wide) which have three nails (upper corner, upper edge 3/4 from corner, same side as nail at corner 3/4 down)
Pattern would space to allow a little under 1/2" overlap if plates had existed.
* make a smaller set of mirrors on the chest and back (over the heart), don't use any other external plates on the fabric portions.
* make the cut of the upper arm defenses a simple rectangle (or rather a trapezoid with slightly wider bottom than top)
you could add a basic steel shoulder coup as well
* make the thigh defenses narrower and add a smaller fifth one at the crotch (for extra points - make this one of horizontal bands)

Don't wear the matching Mughal pants -- go with simpler Persian boots with again a fake brigandine pattern (or real sandwiched brigandine) on the leg. ...unless you want to get actual Persian greaves.
Knee coups ARE apropriate for Timurid armour
They could be "soup can" style attached to the belt and strapped to the leg with a set of belts independently of the boot
or they could be basic discs attached to the top of the boot and that top extending as a belt strap to the center of the belt.

Rana · Post by **Rana** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:10 pm

Chris Gilman wrote:Why, Yes, I think you could.

This was made with heavy upholstery velvet over 4 layers of canvas and 30,000 gold plated split rivets (about 12,000 short of completing the pattern. In the last photo note pattern on shoulders verses skirt.)
The helmet is not SCA legal, but the armour could be.
This has been a favorite of mine for many years. The original inspiration is in the Wallace collection in London. We built this for Disneyâ€™s Haunted Mansion movie. (Which I wore in the film)
As far as heat, it is quite comfortable. As it is made from separate panels, front, back (w/ attached skirts) , shoulders, arms, it breaths nicely.

I'll be in my bunk.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:58 pm

I was just sent this link:
http://www.museumnetworkuk.org/talking/ ... ajput.html