Sallet visor

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:53 pm

I have some experiance at armoring and have made a lot of pieces over the years, but I am at a total loss for how to get the shape of a sallet visor right. I can make one that essentially "looks" right, but the form is not true to the orignals.

I recently looked a piece from the Wallace Collection that is at our local museum. I have studied the shape, but I still cannot figure out what technique to use to get the part of the visor that juts out at the lower edge of the ye slit, to sit flat and still get the proper curved shape in profile.

Here is my technique so far: I have cut a simple slit with a jigsaw. I don't cut a piece of metal out, rather I just cut a line. Then I start pushing out the lower piece by hammering over an anvil. Then, I have bent the metal back in at a 90 degree angle to try to form the flat piece. The shape is never right.

I have noticed on all of the originals, one the sides of the visors, the metal is pushed out further at the bottom edge of the eye slot. I can't figure out how to do this and I have a feeling this might be some of my problem. I think this is likely the key.

Hopefully my descriptions are not too vague or hard to understand. Has anyone made an accurate reporoduction of a period sallet visor that is willing to share their technique? I don't need patterns or anything, just help on how to make the visor (though I wouldn't turn down patterns).

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:48 am

From my inexperience i can say:
Most pattern for the visor are in 2 pieces this will resolve the problem you have.
If you want to make it in one piece you should not cut the eyeslot at all, instead you need to raise the visor, probably annealing it two or three times to reach the right deep. Only when the shape is right you will open the eyeslot.

Pedro Ramirez · Post by **Pedro Ramirez** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:09 am

I've made several sallets in my day and it seems to me that you have the order of it backwards. I usually push the metal in (towards your face) before moving the creased part out. Then it takes me about an hour over a cow's tongue stake to get the inward sweep just right.
Hope this helps.

William Hurt III · Post by **William Hurt III** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:05 am

I decided to draw up some diagrams of the method I use. I believe it is the same as Mr. Ramirez was discribing. I think the pictures will be self explanitory but feel free to post or email me if any clairification is needed.

[img]http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/images/salletform.jpg[/img]

Hope this helps,

William

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:06 am

Great illustration of the process William. Thanks for sharing it.

J

Armadillo · Post by **Armadillo** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:47 am

William Hurt,

That is the best instructional illustration I have seen connected with this craft. I think line drawings as you've used are much more effective than photographs in describing technique. Between that and your photo essay last month you have done quite a lot to educate people on some advanced techniques. Very fine job.

Adair Orr

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:10 pm

William,
Strongly second Armadillos comments, very useful and clear drawing.

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:45 pm

William, clearest and niftiest technical/line drawing I have ever seen in this field. Bloody well done.

I can't draw for nuts and am deeply envious of you. You just turned what I would try and explain in ten pages of text and 6 photos and made it clearer with one A4 scribble.

I would draw a halo and little trumpeting cherubs around the cancave ended T-stake though, just to highlight how useful one is in the armouring workshop (despite how few people have them).

Sasha

HvR · Post by **HvR** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:10 pm

That is better than any book I have ever read on armouring - next door to outstanding!!! Thank you for sharing that!

If you put together a comprehensive collection I think you could sell that quality of material...I would buy it.

Thank you for sharing.

Helmut

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:06 pm

Mr. William Hurt,

that is a fantastic line drawing. I know that Aaron Toman has at his disposal an immense ability to clearly sketch armour from his experience as an artist. Few others do, as the responses here can indicate. It would be an immesurable service to the armouring world if you would continue to do line drawings like this, possibly in the publication of a book like "The Sketchbook Armourer" or something. Thanks for sharing!

Oscar Erkenswick, aka Mag =)

William Hurt III · Post by **William Hurt III** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:31 pm

Thank you all,

I hope I understood what type of visor you were refering to PaulyP. Of course there is a lot of work not explained there such as the visor will tend to widen out from side to side as you form so it will need to be reworked from time to time during the process. Also a nice big rebated chisel stake is a must for adding the centre ridge. Just a few months ago I saw a large jack hammer chisel bit at home depo for $30 or so that works great.

I have been concidering writing a few books on armour making for several years now. My spelling skill is atrotio... attrotious... bad. My grammer is horrible and is bad too

I also worry about putting out bad historical information. What I have been thinking of doing is making CD roms with photos, text and video showing the procedures I used to make a specific componant of armour. I would like to show both the use os a few modern tools (Burr king and band saw, no presses) and the historical method as best I understand. I was thinking along the lines of the Knee tutorial but continue to the full legs and in more detail. I would also like to include printable patterns. If they sold decently at... about $10 or so I may do more. I would hate to even charge but it would help off set the long periods I go between getting paid on long time projects.

If you all think there is an interest I will try to start on it in the next few months. If so what do you think would be a good project to start with?

Thank you for your input all,

William

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:53 pm

Oh my God!!! Thank you!!!!

Yes, this is exactly the type of visor I was referring to and EXACTLY the type of information I was looking for! Can you tell I am excited?

Once I get out to the shop and build this visor I will post pics. Thank you so much.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:55 pm

William, the only thing better than armourcake is a good recipe for armourcake.

Huzzah and Vivat!

[edit to add] And the only thing better than a good recipe for armourcake is a whole cookbook full of 'em. I'd say there's a very great deal of interest in such a book -- I'd get one, that is for sure, either paper or the CD-rom you're mulling over.

Willing Pell · Post by **Willing Pell** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:06 am

I'm going to modify my T stake this weekend, never thought of it, thanks!

Signo · Post by **Signo** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:54 am

Outstanding! Do it! The world need to learn :wink:

magustoad · Post by **magustoad** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:27 am

William Hurt III wrote:Thank you all,

I have been concidering writing a few books on armour making for several years now. My spelling skill is atrotio... attrotious... bad. My grammer is horrible and is bad too I also worry about putting out bad historical information. What I have been thinking of doing is making CD roms with photos, text and video showing the procedures I used to make a specific componant of armour. I would like to show both the use os a few modern tools (Burr king and band saw, no presses) and the historical method as best I understand. I was thinking along the lines of the Knee tutorial but continue to the full legs and in more detail. I would also like to include printable patterns. If they sold decently at... about $10 or so I may do more. I would hate to even charge but it would help off set the long periods I go between getting paid on long time projects.

If you all think there is an interest I will try to start on it in the next few months. If so what do you think would be a good project to start with?

Thank you for your input all,

William

I am so there. Looked at your website and about fell over when I looked at the german gothic suit. There's more gorgeous stuff in ONE gauntlet than most rigs have all over. My hat off to you sir. :shock:

I am extremely interested in anything you decided to put togeather. Your sketch of the sallet visor was very very useful and, well I can't really add anymore to what's already been said I guess.

Anything you contribute would be greatly appreciated by many I'll wager.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:13 pm

William, whats the depression marked in the center of your t-stake used for?

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:16 pm

William... your challenges are all no problem with the right editor. You should contact Brian Price with Chivalry Bookshelf.

johnpowers · Post by **johnpowers** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:35 pm

It's true, William.

A good editor could help you get what you mean on paper, plus you have talent that you could share with the world (and make money with!) A book filled with excellent instructions (such as those above, or on your site) would sell like hotcakes!

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:42 pm

Count me in too. My wife paid full retail for TOMAR and I still think it's a good deal. A publication with drawings like yours and pics of the same processes side by side would be worth as much with half the words!

You seem to have the capacity to take the next step beyond TOMAR (the best book I know of for learning to make armor) into more detailed and delicate work without increasing the learning curve much. Your drawings seem to be that good.

I'll buy the first copy I can, sight unseen and without review, if you include side by side pics and drawings.

Angus (Matt itrw)

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:28 am

William, forget about words. As Sasha said, youÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve described a hard technique with a few drawings when most people could not do it even with a few thousands words. A sketchbook would be more than enough. I know I would buy it in a heartbeat and pay extra for not having to read.

Thanks again for sharing with us.

Pad

William Hurt III · Post by **William Hurt III** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:08 am

Wow thanks all. Looks like I will have to start working on a book then. I have a few orders that will keep my pretty busy until July but will try to get on it as soon as I have some free time.

Jean Paul, I actualy have 2 different stakes but drew them as one as I should have made it hehe. I use the centre valley stake for shrinking the ankles of greaves. It works like the one on the end of the stake but since I seem to have to put a lot of force behind the hits I use the depression directly over the upright to maximize the hammer strike. I use it for a lot of things. You can see it used for poleyn wings here http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/wing.html . Both greaves ankles and the sallet visor can be done on the horn of an anvil but it is much easier for me on the stake.

I made the stake out of 1018 mild, 3" dia. bar stock with a 1 1/2" square bar welded as the upright. I ground the valley with my belt grinder. It was tireing but didn't take all that long. It would be better out of hardened tool steel but this one has served me for 11 years or so with minimal wear.

Thanks again all,

William

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:12 am

William,

When you get it ready I will buy a copy sight unseen as well.

white mountain armoury · Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:18 am

Thank you for that great bit of info, realy fantastic. I think people would be happy to purchase dvd roms, books etc on techniques like this.
So often less is more, as others have said to fine simple renderings offer more valuable info than any amounts of words could.
very very nice.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:34 am

Even a reproduced sketch book of this kind of technique would be invaluable. I can clearly see what tools and forms I need, at least to start with. Given the shapes being made I can extrapolate and experiment from there.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:43 pm

Corey (or should I say William?),

Seriously, if you just put together a sketchbook of "how too's" for each part of armor (helm tops, legs, bascinets, armets, etc) like you have done here, and then just xeroxed copies of it, I would buy a copy. You could charge me $50-100 and I would still buy a copy of just the xeroxed pages full of sketches/instructions. You wouldn't even have to pay to bind it, I would do that myself. I think everyone else here would too.

George

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:48 pm

DukeAlaric wrote:Corey (or should I say William?),

Seriously, if you just put together a sketchbook of "how too's" for each part of armor (helm tops, legs, bascinets, armets, etc) like you have done here, and then just xeroxed copies of it, I would buy a copy. You could charge me $50-100 and I would still buy a copy of just the xeroxed pages full of sketches/instructions. You wouldn't even have to pay to bind it, I would do that myself. I think everyone else here would too.

George

Nods like a bobble head doll !!!

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:10 pm

Ahhh a pictures worth 1000 words. And a GOOD line dwawing is better than a photo or film..Great work, I think a book of good sketches with a little written explaination on each page would be invaluable....Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:36 pm

Just checked out your website William, Fantastic work Love that KD helmet your working on. Will it be for sale when completed? Wouldnt blame you if you wanted to hang on to that beauty...Otto

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:53 am

That old thing? When he's done, he'll give it to me. :lol:

JPS · Post by **JPS** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:32 am

wow i now i feel even luckyer (is luckyer a word?) I live near William Hurt and he has started to show me the fine art of beating metal in to something cool. all i can say is neenerr neenerr i get to learn from a master! I am a lucky noob

William Hurt III · Post by **William Hurt III** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:10 pm

Well as you all have inspired me so, I have decided to start working on the book. After seeing the input and some serious concideration I think I will make a print version my goal. I don't believe having full size patterns will work well in book form but I do intend to include scale drawings of them. I expect the price to be a sizable amount more now that I have done a little research into publishing costs. I will, however, try to keep the price down to be affordable on an armourers wage hehe.

I would like to thank you all for the encouragemnet and inspirations. I will try to keep you posted on the progress and to the full subject matter as I get further along.

To address some questions posted here;

George - 'ell, you can call me Susan if it makes you 'appy. LOL Just make sure any checks say "William Hurt"

Otto - The "KD" helmet is spoken for. Thank you for your complement.

Alcyoneus - Sorry but my old apprentice called "dibs" so he gets it.

JPS - Luckyer isn't a word according to Google but should be if you ask me. It's great having you in the shop. Now get off the computer, drive over and make those 50 elbows! (And they say India is the only place to find cheap labour)

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:25 pm

If I had a wish...;o)

William, if you publish a book, IÃ‚Â´d like to see the following:

-a hand on how to construct a pattern properly
-recommendations for tools and their weight, if possible metric, too;o)
-make the volume accessible via amazon in Europe for the unlucky that havenÃ‚Â´t got a cedit card

IÃ‚Â´d spend the same money as I did for TOMAR and would be happy...even happier, when more reasonable, but nonetheless happy anyway.

Regards

Ivo

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:43 pm

Where do we send the money?

This may sound weird comming from somebody who will buy the book but don't make it too cheap. It is very useful knowledge that you choose to share (not all do) and should be compensated for it appropriatly sp? Don't know if this makes sense.

Pad

Old_bear · Post by **Old_bear** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:48 pm

William,
That was a very nicely done techniques drawing. Here's the tip to all the aspiring armourers and crafts people; keep a sketch book, practice drawing the armour or whatever piece tou want to make. The process trains your eyes to see better the nuances of the pieces, to visualize the forms in your head and your hands motor control to move the way you want it to.

BTW, if you are looking for a way to produce small run production of books, try cafepress - http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/learn_book.aspx - they are now offering books printed on demand. This may be a semi resonable way to get the initial information out there. As I remember their prices weren't too bad.

Aaron / Valerius

Sallet visor

Sallet visor

T stake mod