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Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:11 pm

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Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:42 pm

Caveat emptor
[Early 16th century. From Latin, Ã¢â‚¬Å“let the buyer beware.Ã¢â‚¬Â

BlackRain · Post by **BlackRain** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:09 pm

I agree with your follow up on the item.. it has been clearly welded on the front which in my opinion is enough to constitute a lie on their behalf saying that it was not. I will be sure to steer clear of them and pass along the information to others in my shire as to their poor workmanship and shoddy business dealings. Thanks for the info.

Best Regards,

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:36 pm

I would expect that kind of craftsmanship from a beginner, so it's obviously not a $200 helm. I wouldn't even say it's worth $75. It looks like someone's first attempt at such a helmet... not to insult beginners, now...

Asmodean · Post by **Asmodean** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:18 pm

I think the proper term for that thing is ...scrap metal
It is so poorly made that I would rather be killed than let anyone know it even exists. I have seen armouring beginners that look 10 times better the first try.

UGHHH,

Sigurd · Post by **Sigurd** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:41 pm

Y'know, stephen sometimes I can't believe peoples expectations. From what i can see, your wife paid $75 for a helmet with camail, expecting a $200 helm. In my not so humble opinion, from the pics you posted, and on their website, you got a $200 helm.

I don't know about the rest of you, but $200 is where helm prices START with me, not $75....

From the link you posted, the Forth helm is $240, No camail, I'd guess somewhere close to $400 with camail. Apples and oranges

I know it sucks, but you should be able to get MORE than what you paid for this helm pretty easily, heck if I had the cash I'd probably buy it just for the mail.

And as for their 'shoddy business practices' I've seen nothing any small business wouldn't do. They offered you a refund for the money they kept., not the money THEY PAID on your behalf to ship the helm to you.

now there are a bunch of large companies that'd refund you the shipping, I've worked for 'em, but most armourers are not large businesses that can take a $80 hit easily.

just take a look at what you are asking

I don't like your helmet, give me my money back and oh yeah give me another $80 out of your pocket or I'll trash your reputation...

doesn't seem quite fair to me.

my two bits

Chris

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:49 pm

I'm with Chris... from the pics, it's a $75 helmet. One of our guys bought & modified a Darksword Viking sword instead of buying a blade from an actual re-enactment dealer and -surprise surprise- during a two-day training weekend we helped him beat the blade to a 45 degree angle. This stuff is cheap decorator gear designed for those who are new to the history bug and just want to have something tangible to hold. Those of us who have performing expectations of our equipment will be invariably disappointed.

I understand your chagrin, your wife did the legwork to buy you a very thoughtful present, which failed to meet either of your expectations. But I reiterate, you certainly got your money's worth.

~Wil

*edit* Do an Archive search, I have a dim memory of Glen Kyle being rather pissed off at this company about five years ago.

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:26 am

I agree that it is not a fantastic piece of work, but $75 seems very fair. Also I do not see their response as rude or insulting. Forty bucks for shipping seems rather high, I believe my sallet with bevor was shipped for half of that.

Bill Grandy · Post by **Bill Grandy** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:53 am

Hi Stephen,
This is slightly off topic, but be careful about using Darksword's swords for demos. I have seen a couple, and the workmanship is very shoddy. Poorly made, poorly assembled, poorly designed, poorly tempered, very skimpy tangs. And that's not even touching the fact that they don't handle anything like a historical sword.

Wil mentioned above having bent a Darksword weapon, and that is no surprise to me. For your safety, and the safety of people watching your demos, I wouldn't trust that Darksword.

By the way, I think you got off easy from Darksword's reply.

I expressed my concern about their swords on another forum, and I got some really nasty replies, implying I was either lying or stupid.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:57 am

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Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:01 am

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Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:14 am

The helm was worth $75. For what you want, with the type of workmanship you're expecting, you're going to pay $500 minimum.

This obviously isn't what you want, but for someone with $115 to spend on a display piece, it's a decent helm.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:32 am

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Hacksaw144 · Post by **Hacksaw144** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:09 am

Hello there,

I have done business with Lewis Moore. I love the elbows he did for me they are wonderful. Artiulation is wonderful clean lines if I remember I will take some picts of them and post them here (looks like I deleted the ones he sent me :oops:

)

I am curently interested in a kettle helm from Adam at white mountain. It seems to me he is an anomaly. I have read about 5 reviews on him and they are all very simulare. On time, great workmenship, and wonderful prices. He seems to be a wonderful guy and can't wait to see his work first hand.

Jason

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:06 am

Sometimes ya gets whats you pay for....although it seems the shipping was jacked to cover a higher profit margin.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:43 am

your pissed because a 75$ helm is a POS?

:roll:

really?

your not kidding?

seriously you expected it to be servicable?

to be used in combat???

just me, but I think you got what you paid for....

75$ worth of helm.......

Mike F · Post by **Mike F** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:24 am

I think their response was a bit evasive, but not insulting. What alloy? Was this carbon steel or stainless?

I don't think it's a bad helm, actually. The eye slots are a bit ugly (and definately look welded) but the bacinet looks good for a cheap piece.

Although, let me point out this is why I build all of my own stuff. I'm never satisfied with it, but at least I know it's made with the wole intention on making combat-worthy (and in the future, almost sholely historical) armor.

And personally, I wouldn't fight in a 16g mild helm Dishing in the bowl would make it under 16, and it would seem too light. My $.04, as I had at least two opinions in there.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:21 am

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Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:44 am

Stephen wrote:They siad they were making room in thier wharehouse for new armor and that they were liquidating these 10 helms to make room and that was the only reason they were selling them for that price.

You truly expected them to say:

"These helms are not selling because they are shit! Therefore, we are reducing the cost in order to sell them to unsuspecting people who are easily parted from their money?"

Buyer beware. It happens to everyone from time to time. Suck it up and move on.

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:08 am

To be fair to Stephan If his wife got this for $75 on Ebay then don't berate them for only paying $75 bucks for it.auctions aren't guaranteed unless there is a reserve who knows it could have gone up to $400 in a bid war.
I have given away helms I have made that were better than this one because I didn't feel right asking for money for armour not up to my standards.
but $75 is fair for this costume piece and I am sure you can regain that at auction.
just don't buy from them again.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:16 am

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Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:38 pm

Since I was used as a reference, I thought I'd point out that tomorrow I will have Hounskull Basinets, Conical Great Helms, and Rounded Great Helms, all in 14GA stainless steel, back in stock.

http://www.forth-armoury.com/Product_Ca ... /helms.htm

Steve

AaronT · Post by **AaronT** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:30 pm

Stephen wrote:Sigurd- How many helms or armour have you purchased of late? There are MANY armorers out there that would not even think of turning out a helm like that let alone try and sell it for $200.00 they say on thier ebay site that this helm usally goes for $250.00 as well. They emailled me and said $200.00

I have seen indian helms for 35.00 better made than this "Hand forged" helm from darksword they claim is a $250.00 helm.

Sigurd- I have the helm on ebay right now for $50.00. Now is your chance to own it at a VERY good price.

They charged me $40.00 US for shipping as well. Seems a bit much from Montreal. The helm is alot lighter than any other 16G helm I have gotton. Yes the maille is heavy but not like its 14 G.

Sigurd if you want this helm I will include the camail for the $50.00
The same camil from a armory that attached it directly to the helm by the lining holes instead of the vervelles and strapping.

I have plenty of armor lying around that I could overcharge people for. I just can not do it. I have NEVER raped anyones pockets or misrepresented a piece of armor or weapon to anyone in my life. I can even say with all the armor I have sold archivers over the years I have never made more than $15.00 on any one transaction. I normally sell to archivers at the same price I got the armor for.
I am not a whiner. I do good by people and when I get shafted I really get pissed. when I was bounty hunting full time I flew to arizona from florida to get a shithead who jumped bail on me over a $1000.00 bond he decided to fail to appear in court on. That means by right I was do $100.00 to bring this guy in for my company, thats it. The fact that he bought his two young children into my office the week before and played the loving father card to me and poured it on thick about taking care of them and not to worry he would go to court and get this all taken care of and then stole his kids savings to jump bail on me!! I lost mony but It felt really good to drag this piece of shit shackeled and cuffed all the way back from arizona and put a felony bail jumping charge on him as well as the failure to appear warrent. He made a small misdemeanor and a honorable bail agent into a felony jail time and a vengful tyrannt who took much pleasure in breaking him down to the animal he is.
Its the principle is what I am trying to say. This armory should be held accountable. Yes the yare in buisness to make money but it is just wrong to make a crapload of money of a inferior product that is mirepresented. Dont give my "thats life" crap either! It does not have to be that way if more people would just NOT TAKE THE SHIT from these people and companies again.

Anyone here who has dealt with Lewis Moore and his armor for the prices he sells and the service he provides for those prices know what I am talking about.

Warren from Hoseki Leather
Lewis from Knights armory
AaronT
Padrig
Russ Mitchell
Adam from white mountain
and many others are examples of MEN who provide a quality product for a good price and would never think of sending out a product that was so blatently inferior. They would not prey upon non armour buying type people!

Stephan, I feel honored to have my name placed among those listed, and I will strive to always achieve greater quality and service as I become more experianced.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:07 pm

I have to agree with the sentiment that the helm was more than worth $75.

Have any of you checked out the price of steel lately?

How many of you wish to charge $7.50 an hour for your services - is that all you are worth?

In America or Western Europe, I don't expect to pay less than $700 for a welded hat that is 'combat worthy' or historically accurate to any extent of the word (unless it is without a visor), and nowadays I don't expect to spend less than $1200- $1500 for a raised hat of any worth, and more for a complex design

If you know what you are looking at, and you have an eye for shape and tallent, you get what you payed for, and sometimes you get a bargain.

If you pay $75 for a visored bascinet, and expect anything more than a nice display piece to put on a stand in your den, or on a bookshelf, then I think you have unrealistic expectations. If you expect (assuming you live in America) that it is fair to you personally to sell a quality helmet that replicates closely a historical one (even using modern technique) that requires any welding, serious shaping, or making a visor for $200, then you are sap in my estimation, or a person with a hopless lack of self worth. $200 for the job would be a good price in Eastern Europe, or Southeast Asia.

If you can accurately replicate a shape of a historical helmet, and mimic historical technique, then unless you are talking about a simple spangenhelm, $200 is way under value for time, cost of material, and skill.

As to symmetry of the helmet being a particular concern, I respectully suggest those of you to whom this is a primary consideration have not seen many up close pictures of Medieval and Renaissance helms, ner mind handled one.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:12 pm

To add -

If I had got it from my wife, I would have thanked her for thinking of me by getting such an unusual present from a spouse, and would have kept it (because it was from her), and used it in my presentations as an example for children to try on. $75 for that hat is a bargain, and the fellow who got it for $55 got a bargain indeed.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:12 pm

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chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:03 pm

Stephen wrote:Chef- You have just called american armourers like Lewis Moore and the like for putting out quality armour at the price range you mentioned "saps".

Furthermore you have also alluded to the fact that I do not have respect for my wife by your comments on what you would do.

Most people on this board know the postings you and I have had and the way we have talked to each other on this forum. I will not and do not forget those reactions from you. I would ask that you refrian from posting on threads I begin uless they directley involve you. I know this is alot to ask of you but I would ask it just the same. You know what I think of you and how I intend to great you upon meeting you.

If you persist in chiding me with your comments on my postings that do not involve you I will make the effort to take the trip north. This I swear.

Please if other archivers do not know of the heated posts and personal attacks made then refrian from your comments about how I am making something of nothing with Chef.

I will not entertain such ideas. Chef has offended me and my wife one to many times to "Get over it"

Stephen,

My opinion is my own, and an honest one. It is directed to the value of armourers - not you as an individual. I'll make a point not to post to your threads, based on their general value, rather than your public threats to me. I'm sure people can gauge just what sort of a fellow you are the more you open your mouth, so to speak.

Surely, considering your profession, you ought know how silly it is for you to publicly threaten people.

Ugo · Post by **Ugo** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:41 pm

Yer so cute when you get all puffy! :roll:

... C'mon Stephen, don't take yourself so seriously. It doesn't help your cause & it makes you look like an arse.

(plus when you threaten someone in writing AND in such an open forum... really won't look good in court, let's say...if something were to happen...to a friend of ours) :wink:

If you are looking for attention, you got it. I don't think this is the type you're looking for.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:58 pm

Frankly, for $75, it doesn't look bad at all.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:47 am

Wow. I think the attitude is more the problem then the quality of the helm. Insults and threats. Whatta guy.

JohnWoods · Post by **JohnWoods** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:37 am

There are a few minor problems, but overall I think the helm is more than worth 75$. I even know a couple of people that might give you 75$ for it right now. E-mail me directly if you interested in selling it and I'll pass the word along to the right people.

John

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:19 am

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Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:43 am

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:23 am

I'll buy it for 50 bucks. Just bid on it on Ebay.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:29 am

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Not me

Shoddy work