I just subscribed to Viking Heritage Magazine and received a great companion book called "Follow the Vikings" that provides an overview of Viking sites worldwide. It describes Grobina, Latvia as a "centre of Scandinavian settlement on the Baltic Sea" with no fewer than 3,000 burial mounds. There are three cemeteries in Grobina with grave goods of central Swedish and Gotlandic type. It also makes the point that Grobina was as close to Gotland as Birka, and, in a little understatement, says, "... some of the finds are unique in the Viking world."
Viking hand a half sword? Whatcha make of this:
- Dave Womble
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Laconia, NH USA
- Contact:
Viking hand a half sword? Whatcha make of this:
Alex B, a forum member on Arador posted this quote and image he found on Sword Forum, and I wanted to present it here as well for further discussion and comments:
- Attachments
-
- sword.jpg (31.11 KiB) Viewed 3687 times
- Dave Womble
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Laconia, NH USA
- Contact:
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
- Dave Womble
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Laconia, NH USA
- Contact:
The spacing between the pommel and guard alone is what raised my eyebrows...thats pretty uncommon for Scandinavian swords. I havnt looked and compared it to any of the Viking Age typologies (Wheeler or Petersen) so I have no idea as to its relative date. Like I said though, of all the "viking" swords I've seen in books and reports, I've never seen one with a grip that long before.
Dave
Dave
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
- Dave Womble
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1113
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Laconia, NH USA
- Contact:
I think its a longer than average grip...all the other ones in my sword books are pretty "stumpy" for want of a better word.
Theres a couple examples in Peirces book that are not quite as long as that one, but longer than others. Perhaps it was specially made for an exceptionally large man. I dont begin to claim it has anything to do with specialized fighting styles or anything like that, but its definately not a typical sword.
Dave
Theres a couple examples in Peirces book that are not quite as long as that one, but longer than others. Perhaps it was specially made for an exceptionally large man. I dont begin to claim it has anything to do with specialized fighting styles or anything like that, but its definately not a typical sword.
Dave
- Patton Lives
- Archive Member
- Posts: 8279
- Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: University of Alabama in Huntsville
Murdock wrote:Is the grip that long of is the hilt that narrow???
Need measurements?
It does look like a hand and a half hilt length though, help if we had a pic of it in someones hand.
Heh dude that aint a narrow hilt thats the tang! the wood hilt has probably rotted off a long time ago
Trying to learn derivations of field equations from a lecture is like trying to learn how to paint by watching Bob Ross on PBS.
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:59 pm
- Location: Memphis, TN / Barony of Grey Niche, Kingdom of Gleann Abhann
True, but compared to other similar examples in Pearce's work, that still looks like an unusually long tang. Compare the width of the blade to the length of the tang, and I'd say it's very interesting.Drachus wrote:Heh dude that aint a narrow hilt thats the tang! the wood hilt has probably rotted off a long time ago
- Sir Lorccan hua Conchobair
Former armourer at Darkwood Armory, now just armouring a bit for fun.
"I've schlepped ugly gear about the field. It does not inspire -- not me, not anybody. Better to try and make it pretty." - Konstantin the Red
Former armourer at Darkwood Armory, now just armouring a bit for fun.
"I've schlepped ugly gear about the field. It does not inspire -- not me, not anybody. Better to try and make it pretty." - Konstantin the Red
It isn't THAT long.
The Four Tetrarchs, c305:
[img]http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~amidd ... rarchs.jpg[/img]
The Four Tetrarchs, c305:
[img]http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~amidd ... rarchs.jpg[/img]
My 10yo daughter says I'm pretty!
Squire to Jarl Asgeirr Gunnarson, Barony of Vatavia, Calontir
Squire to Jarl Asgeirr Gunnarson, Barony of Vatavia, Calontir
- Patton Lives
- Archive Member
- Posts: 8279
- Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: University of Alabama in Huntsville
I know, thats what I was trying to tell him, it isnt that the hilt is real skinny that gives the illusion of it being longer, it really is longer, considering the fullness the grip would add when installed, it looks like its at least 9 inches long eh?Lorccan wrote:True, but compared to other similar examples in Pearce's work, that still looks like an unusually long tang. Compare the width of the blade to the length of the tang, and I'd say it's very interesting.Drachus wrote:Heh dude that aint a narrow hilt thats the tang! the wood hilt has probably rotted off a long time ago
Trying to learn derivations of field equations from a lecture is like trying to learn how to paint by watching Bob Ross on PBS.
- Cap'n Atli
- Archive Member
- Posts: 7400
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Oakley, Maryland, USA (in St. Mary's ["b'Gawd Cap'n..."] County)
- Contact:
Individual genetic variation?
Personal preference?
Local fashion?
Just another great example of why we have to be very careful with the use of the terms "never" and "always". Glad I saw it, because I'd be reluctant to believe it otherwise (despite the fact that hand-and-a-half was my favorite later medieval style sword).
More information on it, and any similar examples, will be welcome.
Personal preference?
Local fashion?
Just another great example of why we have to be very careful with the use of the terms "never" and "always". Glad I saw it, because I'd be reluctant to believe it otherwise (despite the fact that hand-and-a-half was my favorite later medieval style sword).
More information on it, and any similar examples, will be welcome.
Retired civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
- Patton Lives
- Archive Member
- Posts: 8279
- Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: University of Alabama in Huntsville
- Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14040
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
Hello:
I asked my mentor (he is heavily into swords of this time period) about longer sword grips and he said "Sure, they had them, just not all that common" so they were known, at least to him and several other metallographers studying that period. But he went on to say that photographs without accurate measurements with them, or at least some sort of scale can be very misleading.
So I have to agree that some measurements would be nice on this..
Vegas Vic
I asked my mentor (he is heavily into swords of this time period) about longer sword grips and he said "Sure, they had them, just not all that common" so they were known, at least to him and several other metallographers studying that period. But he went on to say that photographs without accurate measurements with them, or at least some sort of scale can be very misleading.
So I have to agree that some measurements would be nice on this..
Vegas Vic
- Cap'n Atli
- Archive Member
- Posts: 7400
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Oakley, Maryland, USA (in St. Mary's ["b'Gawd Cap'n..."] County)
- Contact:
Except that I can count the number of double edged Viking knives I've seen on one finger; and it didn't look like that.mordreth wrote:The problem is not having a measurement listed
It could be a hand and a half viking sword, or a knife with really nice furnature
Still, measurements would certainly be useful; plus any further contextural information.
Retired civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
same numbering system I'd use for hand and a half viking swords (outside of 13th warrior)
I heard a comment from someone that most of the artifacts we have for "dark ages" arms and armor would fit into a good sized three car garage - I'm sure there is more stuff out there that will make us change hard and fast rules
I heard a comment from someone that most of the artifacts we have for "dark ages" arms and armor would fit into a good sized three car garage - I'm sure there is more stuff out there that will make us change hard and fast rules
Sweat in the tiltyard, or bleed on the field.
- Bjorn Are Stolen
- New Member
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:29 am
- Location: Norway
Cavalery-sword (with nostalgic pommel)?
Swords that break with what seems to be the norm surfaces from time to time. A swordfind from around the year 0 in norway shows a La-Tene sword (small pommel, v-shaped crossguard) with a 18 cm long grip. (The blade is around 80 cm)
Petersen writes that the grips (on vikingswords) averridges in at around 10 cm, the shortest 8cm; the longest 12 cm -and often from the late viking-age.
One can only speculate, it's not found one single vikingsword in norway that I know of with such a long grip (there's been found around 2000 vikingswords in Norway). A long grip with a sizeable pommel improves the balance, and the sword could very well be intended like a "Norman cavalery-sword" from the 11th century-that have attatched some old fassioned pommel/crossguard-pieces (from the 9/10th centuries? -the small crossguard is most typical in the older vikikng age, acording to Petersen). Swords wielded from horse will often have relatively long blades, and that offsets the balance. That can be compensated with enlengthening the grip, and voala; a 11/12th century cavallerysword resembeling a 14th century longsword! (The fact that the pommel is one piece and not 2 pieces could be interpeted as a sign of a relatively young sword, as only one pommelpiece-acording to Petersen-is a sign of cheap copying or late viking age/medieval times.)
Petersen writes that the grips (on vikingswords) averridges in at around 10 cm, the shortest 8cm; the longest 12 cm -and often from the late viking-age.
One can only speculate, it's not found one single vikingsword in norway that I know of with such a long grip (there's been found around 2000 vikingswords in Norway). A long grip with a sizeable pommel improves the balance, and the sword could very well be intended like a "Norman cavalery-sword" from the 11th century-that have attatched some old fassioned pommel/crossguard-pieces (from the 9/10th centuries? -the small crossguard is most typical in the older vikikng age, acording to Petersen). Swords wielded from horse will often have relatively long blades, and that offsets the balance. That can be compensated with enlengthening the grip, and voala; a 11/12th century cavallerysword resembeling a 14th century longsword! (The fact that the pommel is one piece and not 2 pieces could be interpeted as a sign of a relatively young sword, as only one pommelpiece-acording to Petersen-is a sign of cheap copying or late viking age/medieval times.)
- Cap'n Atli
- Archive Member
- Posts: 7400
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Oakley, Maryland, USA (in St. Mary's ["b'Gawd Cap'n..."] County)
- Contact:
Seems to me like the "Bronze Buddha Rule" should apply; namely to avoid endless copies of possible unique artifacts. especially in the same camp or group. Also, one still needs to pin down location and time period.
On the other claw, it does reinforce that there were a range of forms within the period, and that wider variations did occur. From the point of view of teaching, variations are good, where authenticlones and uniformity are more atypical in most early medieval contexts.
Had an interesting complaint from one of the crew the other day; it seems that the Viking period tunics he found on the internet were all far too fancy for an oar-puller like him, they all had nice trim and such, and didn’t look too sturdy. He wanted to know where to fine some plain, work-a-day type tunics. I have him sewing his own now; it’s cheaper and more personal.
On the other claw, it does reinforce that there were a range of forms within the period, and that wider variations did occur. From the point of view of teaching, variations are good, where authenticlones and uniformity are more atypical in most early medieval contexts.
Had an interesting complaint from one of the crew the other day; it seems that the Viking period tunics he found on the internet were all far too fancy for an oar-puller like him, they all had nice trim and such, and didn’t look too sturdy. He wanted to know where to fine some plain, work-a-day type tunics. I have him sewing his own now; it’s cheaper and more personal.
Retired civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
Visit parks: http://www.nps.gov
Forge iron: http://www.anvilfire.com
Go viking: http://www.longshipco.org
"Fifty years abaft the mast."
bump
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... highlight=
check the discussion here about this sword. i did a lil photo shop in my post there. i believe the part they have for the guard is realy the bottom part of the pommel like albion's jarl sword. but thats jsut my internet opinion. without fully inspecting and handling the piece to see how it goes together, its really up in the air.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... highlight=
check the discussion here about this sword. i did a lil photo shop in my post there. i believe the part they have for the guard is realy the bottom part of the pommel like albion's jarl sword. but thats jsut my internet opinion. without fully inspecting and handling the piece to see how it goes together, its really up in the air.
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
- Bartel fitz Neel
- Archive Member
- Posts: 561
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Fairmont MN
- Contact:
-
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13112
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Socorro, New Mexico
two things to throw in here
A) from what I can tell Latvia trade was much like that at Gotland, lots of unique 'way the hell out in left field' odd ball finds. Many one of a kind (as stated), this does not make any of those odd ball pices COMMON.
B) I have documentation on a greatsword in an early period Russian grave, found in a womans grave none the less:)
Halv
mysteries happen, its what keeps us on our toes
A) from what I can tell Latvia trade was much like that at Gotland, lots of unique 'way the hell out in left field' odd ball finds. Many one of a kind (as stated), this does not make any of those odd ball pices COMMON.
B) I have documentation on a greatsword in an early period Russian grave, found in a womans grave none the less:)
Halv
mysteries happen, its what keeps us on our toes