cold steel polypropylene wasters

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:13 pm

So I ordered a couple of these Monday they got here today. They are much better than I expected. If anyone is looking for good and what appear to be durable wasters on the cheap you cant go wrong with these. Cold steel sells them for US$40.00 Bud k sell them for US$31.00. They are bit blade heavy but the addition of leather to the handle might fix that as well as make the plastic grip more comfortable.
[img]http://budk.com/images/250/46CS92BKHNH.jpg[/img]

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=46%20CS9 ... 1245902756[/i]

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:00 am

I wouldn't be too eager to really bonk somebody across the nervous system with one, though. HDPE tends to hit like a Mag-Lite. There was a bit of experimenting with rounds of the stuff as a potential rattan substitute -- it actually hit too hard. Sir Strykar (Storvik, Atlantia) then used it as his pell exercise implement, with occasional outings as a marshaling staff.

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:21 am

they are kinda crap as wasters go....but they are cheap. good luck.

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:46 am

I wouldn't be too eager to really bonk somebody across the nervous system with one, though. HDPE tends to hit like a Mag-Lite. There was a bit of experimenting with rounds of the stuff as a potential rattan substitute -- it actually hit too hard. Sir Strykar (Storvik, Atlantia) then used it as his pell exercise implement, with occasional outings as a marshaling staff.

I was not posting this for the SCA, I was posting it for the WMA folks who might want something inexpensive for people starting out. But since you brought up "Hitting too hard" in regards to the SCA,It got my brain to churning.

After 20 or so years in the SCA and after having lived through one or two "OMGzzz we are running out of rattan what ever shall we do!!!" scares I have never understood why we never made the jump to HDPE. WE choose how hard we hit, not the material. We already have rules about excessive force. What is the difference in applying that rule to a pole weapon over a single handed weapon.Its just a training issue nothing more. Fencers use steel swords and they seem to be able to control themselves just fine. I think us dumb heavies can show that level of control with a sword shaped piece of plastic and not loose that joie de guerre that we get from taking and receiving mighty blows.

HDPE also seems to have the same safety benefits that we attribute to rattan,namely it is slightly flexible and it wont splinter. Is a baton made out of HDPE going to hit harder than the 3 inch in cross section fish bats that some people fight with? I tend to doubt it. It is all in how we apply force with a given tool, not the tool itself.

This is just some food for thought.I am not trying to lead a quixotic quest to get the rules to change. The SCA uses rattan and as it was so shall it ever be... :wink:

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:50 am

they are kinda crap as wasters go....but they are cheap. good luck.

How so? Please elucidate why these are crap. I understand they they are not weighted or balanced like a real sword. The Balance issues can be fixed to make them more"alive" as it were. I suspect the extra weight is not too much though.

AndreasMorgan · Post by **AndreasMorgan** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:46 am

As far as HDPE goes for a rattan substitute..... No way! That stuff hits with bone shattering force(through armor). Another big downer is that in cold weather the stuff shatters. How do I know? "Hey watch this, hold my beer!" LOL

Andreas

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:52 am

Are there decent pictures of these on line anywhere?

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:52 am

Not that I saw Corby but they kook like the pic only larger. If you go to the Cold steel site they have a spread of all their poly weapons but only as a group photo. If you would like I could bring them to assessments with me and assuming you will be there you can see them in person.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:09 am

I remember a practice in Duke Comar's back yard
when the HDPE was last proposed...

I happened to walk past at the wrong time and got
volunteered to give my opinion of how they hit.

Comar took a lazy swing at my leg ( in steel armor )
and my responce was.

:shock:

"Ow.... that really hurt. How hard did you swing?
( because it looked like he didn't swing hard at all )
Hey, there is a flat spot on the leg now....."

It seemed like it transferred EXTRA engery from somewhere.

It would be way too easy to accidentally too hard in the heat
of a fight.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:25 am

I remember that practice. Comar was Society EM at the time, and someone sent him this white plastic stick as a possible rattan substitute.

It went something like this...

"Here, tell me what you think, I'll throw at about a 4 or 5 out of 10..."

<WHACK>

"Oh, HELL no..."

Repeat.

Tried it myself - Conal's right - it hit WAY harder than rattan, and was "dead" in the hand - no feedback. Wouldn't take much to seriosuly drill someone.

.

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:32 am

I remember it being tried at our practice, too.

Even our the thugs in the group thought it hit too hard, too easily. Literally, you don't have to swing hard at all to hit like a truck.

Now, I've seen a black plastic bokun and it seems to be of a different plastic and it doesn't hit like that white HDPE. It seems to hit about like rattan-cored siloflex. It wasn't 1.25 inch thick, and my other concern was that it seemed to get nicked easily.

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:00 am

Now, I've seen a black plastic bokun and it seems to be of a different plastic and it doesn't hit like that white HDPE. It seems to hit about like rattan-cored siloflex

These are made of the same stuff as the bokun . They flex just like rattan. I would worry about the nicking as well but I think a solution could be reached.

Again let me reiterate I am not advocating a change here to plastic over rattan. I was just posing a few questions.

I still think force issues are a training issue and nothing more. We don't apply that "in the heat of the moment" logic to the cut and thrust fencers yet its perfectly acceptable for them to use something much stiffer than the HDPE to fight with. Why do they get to use what amounts to a rebated sword when us neanderthals have to use grass? Do heavy fighters have less control than a fencer when in the heat of the moment? I don't think so.

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:09 am

How is using a plastic any aesthetically better than using a grass?

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:24 am

it could actually be sword shaped :lol:

AndreasMorgan · Post by **AndreasMorgan** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:28 am

I will refer to my earlier post.... HDPE rods shatter in cold weather.

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:30 am

So can rattan. Check Eldric's swords.

Part of what we get from SCA combat is we can actually hit with force. I may be wrong, but I don't believe C&T hits as hard. (ready to be corrected on that one). Hitting with force gives a different aspect to the combat.

Not to mention that re-calibrating several thousand fighters is a non-trivial task.

bkillian · Post by **bkillian** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:48 am

Again not advocating change just playing what if....

You can still hit just as hard You just don't have to swing as hard.
No the fencers are not hitting with force but "in the heat of the moment" they could. This is the same thing I hear about HDPE swords. "Some one might hit to hard with them in the heat of the moment"so we cant use them. But I say some one could hit too hard with a fiberglass spear and we still use them. People could hit too hard with a pole weapon in the heat of the moment ....we still use them. People could hit too hard with a great sword but we still use them.

Now as for retraining people. I really don't think it wold be as bad as we think. Every time we make a new sword we re calibrate how hard we throw. Not to a drastic degree but we do do it.

So can rattan. Check Eldric's swords.

Those aren't rattan . They're just witchcraft I tells ya!!!

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:58 am

By 'hitting harder', I'm including the act of swinging with force, which takes, on the whole, better body mechanics to do well. It is physical work to deliver an SCA 'good' blow. That is an aspect that is different than most other systems. We don't judge on 'form' or how 'correct' a technique was used. If it takes less force to deliver a 'good' shot, then techniques will change to take advantage of the less work needed, and, imo, stray farther from 'swordplay' to the 'stick-tag' end of the spectrum.

YMMV.

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:14 pm

Why not try it as an experiment with experienced fighters. That way the delicate flowers don't have to worry about it.

Therion · Post by **Therion** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:19 pm

Corby de la Flamme wrote:Are there decent pictures of these on line anywhere?

More pics are in the listing on my site ....

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:39 pm

I like it.

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:51 pm

bkillian wrote:
they are kinda crap as wasters go....but they are cheap. good luck.

How so? Please elucidate why these are crap. I understand they they are not weighted or balanced like a real sword. The Balance issues can be fixed to make them more"alive" as it were. I suspect the extra weight is not too much though.

The opinion over here was that they were a bit too thick, badly balanced and not made particularly well...there was a discussion on how to rectify the faults and in the end the opinion was to buy one of the better nylon wasters available. So for its price it is totally workable...you'll just want to tweak it a bit. Sorry my first post was kinda on the fly...and crap itself :oops:

Dietrich von Stroheim · Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:59 pm

bkillian wrote:Not that I saw Corby but they kook like the pic only larger. If you go to the Cold steel site they have a spread of all their poly weapons but only as a group photo. If you would like I could bring them to assessments with me and assuming you will be there you can see them in person.

Hey Brian,
Those wasters look cool. I'd be game to try them out with you (either experimental or outside of the SCA context or whatever). We could start slow and work our way up to whatever we were comfortable with.

Dietrich

^ · Post by ^ » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:20 pm

Something to remember is that the SCA is currently kinda stuck with its 1.25" diameter rule. This means that those wasters are to thin. And that any material you try is going to have to face that issue. You probably have to change that some how to get a material that works. A deep fuller might take some rigidity out of it.

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:42 pm

It's possible to make sword analogs out of plastics (nylon) or rattan. But by the time you get done with your tweaks you've spent as much as it would cost to make a decent aluminum-steel waster and almost as much as you would spend on a decent steel blunt. Rattan clubs have the advantages of:
-Being relatively cheap.
-Being easy to self-make and customize.
-Being relatively historical (check out the Venetian and Northern Italian fights with 'Cane of India').
-Getting us away from the idea that we are using swords and getting us toward the idea that we are using batons.

My experience with wood and rubber wasters is that they don't perform like a sword. I spent 18-24 months working with wooden wasters and then got to use a decent aluminum waster at a Bob Charron seminar and nearly split my partner's skull because the metal waster behaved so differently. I have not tried this particular make of waster and have no intention of doing so. My next sword purchase will be an arming sword I can use in C&T, when one is approved.

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:15 pm

Piers Brent wrote:Something to remember is that the SCA is currently kinda stuck with its 1.25" diameter rule. This means that those wasters are to thin. And that any material you try is going to have to face that issue. You probably have to change that some how to get a material that works. A deep fuller might take some rigidity out of it.

You make a good point. Too bad, I like the looks of that thing.

^ · Post by ^ » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:32 pm

audax wrote:
Piers Brent wrote:Something to remember is that the SCA is currently kinda stuck with its 1.25" diameter rule. This means that those wasters are to thin. And that any material you try is going to have to face that issue. You probably have to change that some how to get a material that works. A deep fuller might take some rigidity out of it.

You make a good point. Too bad, I like the looks of that thing.

Well it isn't too bad, if it turns out that they can be safely used with the level of force used in the SCA then it just means that the people who want to go that direction will have to change their helms to have narrower slots in the face.

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:38 pm

Piers Brent wrote:
audax wrote:
Piers Brent wrote:Something to remember is that the SCA is currently kinda stuck with its 1.25" diameter rule. This means that those wasters are to thin. And that any material you try is going to have to face that issue. You probably have to change that some how to get a material that works. A deep fuller might take some rigidity out of it.

You make a good point. Too bad, I like the looks of that thing.

Well it isn't too bad, if it turns out that they can be safely used with the level of force used in the SCA then it just means that the people who want to go that direction will have to change their helms to have narrower slots in the face.

Well, I wouldn't mind because I just bought a helm to work out rules for sparring with aluminum swords (can't use steel in Japan, dammit). However, most folks won't pay out to retool on such a scale.

HOwever, I am willing to try it. If someone will send me some of those plastic blades, I and a couple of guys will destruct test them (well, them or us.

)

I am minded of the time thought that we wanted to do thrown spear in Avalon, so we decided to test the safety rules to see if we could do it. I'm pretty easygoing on most safety issues -- it's your body -- but my thought was: ow crap damn... um no.

Jonathan Baird · Post by **Jonathan Baird** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:28 pm

Our organization (a Non-SCA combat/WMA society) is switching over to these over the next two years and phasing out rattan for combat pending some additional fighter practices with them. The weight problem can be overcome by either cutting the sword down a bit (making a more friendly one handed weapon) or adding to the handle. As we allow pommel strikes we wont be adding to the pommel area. We have a slightly lower calibration than standard SCA so the fact they hit hard isn't as much of a problem. On the plus side they act more like real swords and look more like real swords.

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:41 pm

We could switch to perforated plate like the cut and thrust guys. It wouldn't be that hard. Not saying that solves all the problems though.

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:52 am

a slightly more expensive option can be found here: http://theknightshop.co.uk/ but the quality of their nylon swords is much better.

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:05 am

Brian, I actually understood where you were going with this and it had nothing to do with SCA heavy combat.

However to answer your question. SCA fencers/rapier fighters and heavy fighters do two totally different styles. Just try to go out on a rapier field and throw a flat snap and see the reaction you get. SCA heavy fighters throw with force and as many times as has been posted here about hitting solid and with true force do yoou think guys would take to something that would take that away from them? No you would still have the guys hitting solid and right now that would be a little too much.

I would love to see something replace rattan that looked and acted more like a real sword. However there are two problems as I have been told. the first is cost as a replacement would be expensive. The second is repeat sales. Why would a business put money into developing something that would have limited repeat sales.

Vebrand

LOGOS · Post by **LOGOS** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:17 am

Vebrand wrote:Just try to go out on a rapier field and throw a flat snap and see the reaction you get. SCA heavy fighters throw with force and as many times as has been posted here about hitting solid and with true force do yoou think guys would take to something that would take that away from them? No you would still have the guys hitting solid and right now that would be a little too much.

Vebrand

Actually, just two weeks ago, it was perfectly illustrated why flat snaps with real swords don't work...

I was doing C&T with a fellow knight with few restrictions: i.e. he could hit me as hard and fast as he could in the head or legs. He was using a well tested and beefy backsword. I was using a broadsword that was a touch lighter. He threw a standard flat snap that I blocked with my buckler and snapped his sword right at the tang. Looking at the tang and quillons we surmised that my block twisted the blade out of the plane of the blow torquing it at the shoulders. I have been using blades exactly like this one for years under ardorous conditions and have never broken a sword. You are welcome to examine my C&T helm and schiavona hilt if you think we never hit hard....

So while everyone loves their flat snaps, they work great with sticks that bounce, bend, and move in all sorts of ways that steel doesn't, any blow that leaves you without a weapon isn't too practical.

I'm not belittling the skill, etc. of rattan fighting - most of you guys would probably wipe the floor with me - but sword fighting it's not.

white mountain armoury · Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:39 am

I know people who have deeply creased and knocked people near stupid with a flat snap from a rebated sword and the sword did not meet the same fate as the one you are referring to.
I dont believe one instance invalidates a particular "strike"
There are many reasons a weapon could fail like that.

LOGOS · Post by **LOGOS** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:52 am

You obviously missed the part where I said the block with the buckler twisted the blade. If the sword connects its intended target to crease and knock down the target, the dynamics are different.

Try throwing a flat snap at the head and having th point of a heater catch the flat of the blade and twist it enough to almost break your wrist.

You can believe what you want, but you will never convince me that swinging a grass club, no matter how skillfully, recreates fighting with an edged steel sword. I've had a bit of experince with both you know....