some training videos

[dukelogan]

alrighty. well, we got some video done tonight and its on my website. we did three training shorts. i dont know if they are any good or not or if they even make sense so any feedback would be great. please, if you have any questions or comments, post them here or send them to my email address and NOT to the inbox here on the archive. the website is, of course, linked below.

regards
logan

[carlyle]

alrighty. well, we got some video done tonight and its on my website.

I really appreciate you doing this. I've watched the "timing" video several times. For someone who says you don't need to use hip, though, you sure use it a lot . I was expecting to see one of two things, and you didn't disappoint. Thanks for the lesson! AoC

[dukelogan]

i did it later with my back against the wall and was able to hit with plenty of force. i think what you are seeing is more of my upper body twisting because i throw my flat snap across my chest than what you think are my hips twisting into the blow. i will remake the video with my back against a wall next week.

regards
logan

alrighty. well, we got some video done tonight and its on my website.

I really appreciate you doing this. I've watched the "timing" video several times. For someone who says you don't need to use hip, though, you sure use it a lot . I was expecting to see one of two things, and you didn't disappoint. Thanks for the lesson! AoC

[RoaK]

Thank you for your effort and time; saved to favorite SCA fighting videos…

I didn't see it but do you use a "trigger' on your swords?

Also one request: Any chance you’ll make a video covering your unique anti-lefty technique?

[dukelogan]

the phyics of "triggers" is all kinds of goofy to me. i mean, the trigger sits above the hand and the idea is to pull your strongest fingers tight (index and middle) which is exactly opposite of what i do since i control the sword with my strongest fingers and then tighten the weaker ones at the bottom to drive the sword forward.

plenty of people use them and i know a number of top o' the foodchain cats that swear by them. i honestly think that the squeezing of the trigger simply makes them tighten their grip just at the point of impact which provides the quickness you see in the first video. so i think its really just a gimmick and that the weilder is actually doing all the work and the trigger is simply the vehicle that taught him when to snap his grip.

i do have one or two guys that are still having a hard time with the timing and angle of the shot and i might put a trigger on a sword and see if that helps them with getting this down right (just thought of it!!)


as for my anti-lefty (which is just as much anti-righty). yes, i would be happy to just as soon as my shoulder is healed enough. thats going to be a while. if youre at pennsic i would happy to explain it to you though.

regards
logan

Thank you for your effort and time; saved to favorite SCA fighting videos…

I didn't see it but do you use a "trigger' on your swords?

Also one request: Any chance you’ll make a video covering your unique anti-lefty technique?

[RoaK]

I'll be at Pennsic and I plan on hanging around the pick-up field so maybe I'll see you there.

[Syrfinn]

Just looked at the first vid so far. Interesting concept, will have to try it out and work on it and see what kind of results I can get with it.

But I love the end of the vid.

[Vebrand]

So what was so cool that you wanted one

Having fought you and seen you fight you didn't mention how much you lean into your shots. Even in the training videos you lean your upper body into a lot of shots you throw. Not a massive type of body movement but you seem to get the body weight behind the shot. I assume that comes from the boxing background.

Vebrand

[dukelogan]

yeah i guess its the same as the body movement when throwing a straight punch basically. i intentional do it also because i try to employ a lot of upper body movement into my shots. on the flip of that i also do a lot of below the hip movements trying not to move my upper body at all. this is done to change positions so that, for example, i can go from one stance and move one leg about three feet in some direction to lean on when i throw a shot. basically taking the step in that direction without moving my upper body.

oh, the thing you hear roaring down the street was some kind of off road 6 wheeled thing with big knobby tires on it. someone said it was called a "mule". it was pretty butch!

regards
logan

So what was so cool that you wanted one

Having fought you and seen you fight you didn't mention how much you lean into your shots. Even in the training videos you lean your upper body into a lot of shots you throw. Not a massive type of body movement but you seem to get the body weight behind the shot. I assume that comes from the boxing background.

Vebrand

[carlyle]

i did it later with my back against the wall and was able to hit with plenty of force. i think what you are seeing is more of my upper body twisting because i throw my flat snap across my chest than what you think are my hips twisting into the blow.

Exactly. When your stance is less-than-square to your opponent, your hips have to rotate to bring the blade on target. Even when you demonstrate the "whip" action at near-speed, the hip is noticeable, both on the delivery and the last-moment "settling", or partial-return, at impatct. If you don't allow the hip to turn, then the torque on the lower back is immense and potentially damaging over the long term. Since you can't "pull" your hip around, it is "driven" by the same-side foot. When you do this in synch with the upper body technique, it can contribute a significant amount of power to the blow.

i will remake the video with my back against a wall next week.

I'll be really interested to see this. The one time in the video where you did square up to your partner, you did not have any hip contribution. Since you threw it slow, however, it was very difficult to see any upper-body contribution.

Leaning into the target, as Vebrand observes, will also lend considerable power, possibly obviating any need for lower body contribution (hip and leg). My guess is that the lean is powered by the abs, unless you are simply shifting your body forward with footwork (ideally, I suspect it is both).

What I'm personally looking for is whether you are using the obliques to turn the upper body by "pushing" against the hips. In this technique, the hips are the anchor for opposition, much as the ground is the anchor for a blow that begins with the foot. I've recently been introduced to this (along with a handful of other "epiphanies" that have created a host more questions than they answer ), and your "no hip" focus might provide some practical insight into how this works.

One critical comment about the training video is the method you use to dismiss hip and rotation technique. Your exageration of these moves is not representative and turns them into clownish actions. Done correctly, they are as tight and controlled as the technique you are demonstrating. I'm not disputing your claim and I do respect your opinion, but you do you argument no favor with this kind of almost-sarcastic dismissal.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

[Josh W]

What's been of greatest value to me have been your "How to Deal With a Lefty" videos. More of these, please, particularly regarding lefties with huge shields.

[mongrel]

Haha what's the matter Joaquin trying to figure out some way to destroy my evil wronghandedness? When I get back I'm dropping the shield so you'll be fine :-p

-mongrel-

[dukelogan]

i will remake the video and show that it can be done. and, i thought i was clear about this in the video, i dont dismiss the benefit of hip rotation. rather, i dismiss the notion that you must use your hips to throw power. i will make that more clear in the remake as well.

and, a lot of the movement is my upper body twisitng because i throw my flat snaps across my chest. i do tighten my abs much like when i throw a hook in boxing. i will try to focus on your questions about that more next week and let you know what i come up with.

regards
logan

i did it later with my back against the wall and was able to hit with plenty of force. i think what you are seeing is more of my upper body twisting because i throw my flat snap across my chest than what you think are my hips twisting into the blow.

Exactly. When your stance is less-than-square to your opponent, your hips have to rotate to bring the blade on target. Even when you demonstrate the "whip" action at near-speed, the hip is noticeable, both on the delivery and the last-moment "settling", or partial-return, at impatct. If you don't allow the hip to turn, then the torque on the lower back is immense and potentially damaging over the long term. Since you can't "pull" your hip around, it is "driven" by the same-side foot. When you do this in synch with the upper body technique, it can contribute a significant amount of power to the blow.

i will remake the video with my back against a wall next week.

I'll be really interested to see this. The one time in the video where you did square up to your partner, you did not have any hip contribution. Since you threw it slow, however, it was very difficult to see any upper-body contribution.

Leaning into the target, as Vebrand observes, will also lend considerable power, possibly obviating any need for lower body contribution (hip and leg). My guess is that the lean is powered by the abs, unless you are simply shifting your body forward with footwork (ideally, I suspect it is both).

What I'm personally looking for is whether you are using the obliques to turn the upper body by "pushing" against the hips. In this technique, the hips are the anchor for opposition, much as the ground is the anchor for a blow that begins with the foot. I've recently been introduced to this (along with a handful of other "epiphanies" that have created a host more questions than they answer ), and your "no hip" focus might provide some practical insight into how this works.

One critical comment about the training video is the method you use to dismiss hip and rotation technique. Your exageration of these moves is not representative and turns them into clownish actions. Done correctly, they are as tight and controlled as the technique you are demonstrating. I'm not disputing your claim and I do respect your opinion, but you do you argument no favor with this kind of almost-sarcastic dismissal.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

[dukelogan]

ive had a great number of requests for that since yesterday. as soon as i can hold my shield again i will.

regards
logan

What's been of greatest value to me have been your "How to Deal With a Lefty" videos. More of these, please, particularly regarding lefties with huge shields.

[Tristan vom Schwarzwald]

The last video was particularly illuminating...

[dukelogan]

so i just watched the videos up on the 50" plasma (for clarity as my 25" monitor isnt as sexy!). i slowed it down to 2/3 speed, frame by frame, and full speed. in each shot my body rotates (hips do move some with the upper body in all but the final shot) and my hips stop well in advance of the sword snapping into the blow. i even watched my hips without looking up at the sword and just waited for the hips to freeze and then listed for the strike. there is a significant delay between the two.

also, the movement i describe at the end when i say that, like cracking a whip, is what i object to being taught as "the only way to get real power into a blow". while it may seem that the example i show is overblown it is very similar to what i see taught fairly often (at least around here).

regards
logan

[dukelogan]

how so?

regards
logan

The last video was particularly illuminating...

[Tristan vom Schwarzwald]

how so?

regards
logan

The last video was particularly illuminating...

Having one leg back so when you sway back and simultaneously fire a shot you actually do NOT lose force in the blow since you achieve full extention of the arm...that never dawned on me...

[carlyle]

in each shot my body rotates (hips do move some with the upper body in all but the final shot) and my hips stop well in advance of the sword snapping into the blow. i even watched my hips without looking up at the sword and just waited for the hips to freeze and then listed for the strike. there is a significant delay between the two.

This is as it should be. The power train you are using is sequential; the lower component overlaps the beginning of the next, higher element, but finishes long before the second is done moving. If I am correct, your shoulders should also stop moving before your arm and hand are at full extension.

The key is that you are not contributing force to the blow by moving your body into or through the impact (this is a different, though equally valid, technique), but by accelerating the blade with a series of optimized power-generating movements. If they don't overlap, the blade can slow down between steps, resulting in a sub-optimal blow. You could also move the hip further through the twist, but the greatest amount of power is at the beginning of the action; anything you get from twisting the hips beyond the first quarter-turn is sub-optimal and really only serve to create a longer recovery.

also, the movement i describe at the end when i say that, like cracking a whip, is what i object to being taught as "the only way to get real power into a blow". while it may seem that the example i show is overblown it is very similar to what i see taught fairly often (at least around here).

I think I understand. Few enough fighters stick with it long enough to teach themselves proper technique; and when working with new fighters, many go on to repeat the same "lessons" they were taught when they started, even if it's no longer what they actually do. Those who try to understand what they do usually work back from the target (I wondered if that wasn't what you were doing when I saw you focusing on the "tightening" element at the end of the blow) and rarely get much further back than the shoulder (you do ). I am only speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if the over-emphasis on hip twist training you are seeing is the evolution of what Paul and Strykar were teaching 20 years ago and more. Left alone, I can see where what was once just one part of the power train has become a "holy grail" today. Unfortunate, but understandable.

The "whipping" I was referring to, and apparently taken out of context with your narration, was the hip action at 01:40. This is classic hip movement, and is all the "whip" anyone needs to learn. In fairness, it's not a whip at all, but the realignment of the hip on the ground "pillar" to transmit maximum power to the target -- think of the last movement in a standard reverse punch thrown from a horse riding stance where the hip starts to settle back to "zero" just at the impact point of the punch. You may not use your hip the way some are teaching, but it is there -- and it is deadly .

With respect,

Alfred

[carlyle]

Having one leg back so when you sway back and simultaneously fire a shot you actually do NOT lose force in the blow since you achieve full extention of the arm...that never dawned on me...

What he's doing is establishing a balanced platform to connect the blow to the ground and support the power transmission. If you tried the same technique without moving the foot back, you would be off balance and could not support the force transmitted to the target; you would have to compensate with excessive force and/or risk stumbling back (or worse, getting pushed @ass-over-tea kettle by an erstwhile opponent taking advantage of your bad center).

There is a theory that you can hit any target from any position. They key is finding the balance point and moving to it to execute the blow... AoC

[twoswords]

Thanks Logan!

I found all three videos to be very informative. Especially the flat snap I liked and will definately incorporate that into my fighting.

[Josh W]

It's not just you, Jon. I've always had a hard time with lefties in SCA shield combat. This is something that I want to work on in general, not something targeted solely at you. Your example just drove home the point.

Haha what's the matter Joaquin trying to figure out some way to destroy my evil wronghandedness? When I get back I'm dropping the shield so you'll be fine :-p

-mongrel-

[DukeAvery]

The main thing is to train against some and train fairly heavily until you develop a sense for the angles and stances involved. If you don't, and you come against a good one, he'll cut you to pieces more often than not because he practices all the time for this fight (left on right).

Regards,

Avery

:P
It's not just you, Jon. I've always had a hard time with lefties in SCA shield combat. This is something that I want to work on in general, not something targeted solely at you. Your example just drove home the point.

Haha what's the matter Joaquin trying to figure out some way to destroy my evil wronghandedness? When I get back I'm dropping the shield so you'll be fine :-p

-mongrel-

[mongrel]

:P
It's not just you, Jon. I've always had a hard time with lefties in SCA shield combat. This is something that I want to work on in general, not something targeted solely at you. Your example just drove home the point.

Haha what's the matter Joaquin trying to figure out some way to destroy my evil wronghandedness? When I get back I'm dropping the shield so you'll be fine :-p

-mongrel-

It's good that you say that, because, I try to shine as the example of everything fighters hate about lefties with or without shields

I agree with what Avery said as well. Against you or any other righty (for the most part) i'm golden, put me up against another lefty and you'll see the most redundant and monotonous fight ever. "What is this sound? Its not his ribs! Its a friggin shield!"

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Just got around to looking at the vids. Nice.

So in the first vid if you take the "hand high flat snap" and combine it with your "hand accross flat snap" but start from tent block, then you have Baldar's "broken-wristed moulinet" which was all the rage 15 years ago.

It's interesting how things come full circle because you say the hand high non-body crossing snapping shot is antiquated (not disagreeing necessarily). That was high tech when Duke Paul srtarted teaching it 25 years ago, but before Paul all the top fighters were basically doing exactly what you show. I think some of the success of his shot was it's novelty/unexpectedness. Now everyone knows to look for it and the cross body is so old it's new and novel again. Only some many ways a body can move, the good fighters just stay ahead of the trend

Then again that trailing foot thing in the last vid is the easiest way for me to spot one of your students. I don't think anyone else came up with that before. That and the forward "hop" to a very square stance which I don't see you doing as much these days.

Keep 'em coming, I've been trying to get some momentum going to do some little video snips just like that.

Gaston

[Leopold der Wolf]

Thanks alot for the videos. Your videos and some others I've found have been great to show my fellow fighters and the new guys . You said on the webpage that you might take requests, well if you do I'd like to request a video teaching about offside blows as they've been the hardest for me to learn.

Thanks again for taking the time to make these

-Sincerely

ps: Where did you guys find the "How to deal with leftys" video?

[dukelogan]

offside to what?

i throw them to the leg, head, underarm, neck, elbow, forearm, inner thigh of the left leg, shield arm (even though thats more a fake to a thumb lead). im actually a little excited about it given how flooded my email account has been the last few days!

regards
logan

Thanks alot for the videos. Your videos and some others I've found have been great to show my fellow fighters and the new guys . You said on the webpage that you might take requests, well if you do I'd like to request a video teaching about offside blows as they've been the hardest for me to learn.

Thanks again for taking the time to make these

-Sincerely

[dukelogan]

i have a couple more questions. however, the first is.... what is a tent block? i thought that was when some asshat set up his ez-up in front of half of my pavilion until we just walked over and grabbed it and moved it about a block or three away. tasteless squatters moving into our neighborhood.... how dare they! and get yer damn kids off my lawn!!!!

ohhh.... ok then, sorry bout that...


so, tent block. what is that?

regards
logan

Just got around to looking at the vids. Nice.

So in the first vid if you take the "hand high flat snap" and combine it with your "hand accross flat snap" but start from tent block, then you have Baldar's "broken-wristed moulinet" which was all the rage 15 years ago.

It's interesting how things come full circle because you say the hand high non-body crossing snapping shot is antiquated (not disagreeing necessarily). That was high tech when Duke Paul srtarted teaching it 25 years ago, but before Paul all the top fighters were basically doing exactly what you show. I think some of the success of his shot was it's novelty/unexpectedness. Now everyone knows to look for it and the cross body is so old it's new and novel again. Only some many ways a body can move, the good fighters just stay ahead of the trend

Then again that trailing foot thing in the last vid is the easiest way for me to spot one of your students. I don't think anyone else came up with that before. That and the forward "hop" to a very square stance which I don't see you doing as much these days.

Keep 'em coming, I've been trying to get some momentum going to do some little video snips just like that.

Gaston

[Leopold der Wolf]

offside to what?

i throw them to the leg, head, underarm, neck, elbow, forearm, inner thigh of the left leg, shield arm (even though thats more a fake to a thumb lead). im actually a little excited about it given how flooded my email account has been the last few days!

regards
logan

Thanks alot for the videos. Your videos and some others I've found have been great to show my fellow fighters and the new guys . You said on the webpage that you might take requests, well if you do I'd like to request a video teaching about offside blows as they've been the hardest for me to learn.

Thanks again for taking the time to make these

-Sincerely

Offside to the arm and torso would be ideal. Thats usually the spots I always see wide open when I'm fighting. the only offside blow I've been taught was the backhand and punch which are all to the head.

Thanks . Oh and my friend Amaranta said you recently got married? Maybe I missed the news but congratulations!

[dukelogan]

will do. ive got a few different ways i throw to the arm. i fight against a lot of heaters and find that shots to the torso are harder to land than dropping it to the hip or leg. if my opponent is legged i can usually hit the torso pretty easily and i do incorporate it in several combos that i use against them. you can see both an offside tot he leg and then, at the end, and offside to the body before the fight ending head shot at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXXToZi ... re=related

there are lots of other examples on my website. the youtube one is crappy because of the video quality so i will be sure to put something together to show the mechanics of a few shots.

and yes, lucky esa gets to be my wife ok, so thats only partially true. esa and i got married less than two months ago. after 38 years i finally found that person and couldnt be more happy.

regards
logan

offside to what?

i throw them to the leg, head, underarm, neck, elbow, forearm, inner thigh of the left leg, shield arm (even though thats more a fake to a thumb lead). im actually a little excited about it given how flooded my email account has been the last few days!

regards
logan

Thanks alot for the videos. Your videos and some others I've found have been great to show my fellow fighters and the new guys . You said on the webpage that you might take requests, well if you do I'd like to request a video teaching about offside blows as they've been the hardest for me to learn.

Thanks again for taking the time to make these

-Sincerely

Offside to the arm and torso would be ideal. Thats usually the spots I always see wide open when I'm fighting. the only offside blow I've been taught was the backhand and punch which are all to the head.

Thanks . Oh and my friend Amaranta said you recently got married? Maybe I missed the news but congratulations!

[Josh K]

Here is the tent block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0623pJjtx6s#t=4m50s

[audax]

Good stuff, your Grace. I always learn a great deal from your videos and I really appreciate you sharing these.

And apparently, I throw my blows pretty much as Duke Logan does. This pleases me.

[carlyle]

Here is the tent block.

Beautiful stuff, Gaston. Can I be your squire ?

Alfred

[Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr]

I've learned that block as a wing block but I guess that name is mainly known in kali/eskrima.

GrimR

[dukelogan]

yeah, i cant block like that. i could with a super light sword (like an escrima stick) but my swords are simply too heavy. i block the side of my head by rolling my head away from the attack while bringing my sword over to meet the attack. i keep my sword about an inch or three from my helm when i do it. the tent block does set you nicely for an offside attack which my style does not. i just cant fight with something light enough to do it.

regards
logan

I've learned that block as a wing block but I guess that name is mainly known in kali/eskrima.

GrimR