Having too much fun

Glaukos the Athenian · Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:40 pm

So I was looking at some photos from earlier fights of mine, and I realized that as I learned a little bit more from let's say my first authorization to now, some 2 years ago, I started enjoying this too much, and it affects my level of "aggression" . I was all hot and big eyed and ready to chew up any opponent (not that it happened often, but that was my mindset)

The issue is that intellectually I know the guy in front of me is not an enemy but an opponent, that I am trying to score a point, not harm him, and that acts as a sort of restraint to hold back "the beast". The beast escaped for real once or twice and it was neither pretty, nor fun. I roamed the field looking not for an opponent, but for a victim -regardless of my level of skill- I was going to kill something...

It is even worse in tournament style fighting, because I like the vast majority of the people I fight against. It becomes fun and I have a problem wanting to "hurt" my opponent, even though I know they are well protected...

So how do you loosen the leash of "the beast" just a little bit, so you release enough aggression to use what you know, but not let it run amok... a delicate balance...

Thanks,

Glaukos the Athenian

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:51 pm

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:So how do you loosen the leash of "the beast" just a little bit, so you release enough aggression to use what you know, but not let it run amok... a delicate balance...

Thanks,

Glaukos the Athenian

Rarely to never. I'm not an adrenalin type fighter and that probably holds me back. If I needed to kill someone I would be damn certain they needed killing, then I'd walk up to them calmly, shake their hand and slide a knife into their chest. Nothing personal, just business and getting the job done.

I vaguely recall freaking out in a fight as a child once or twice. I think I lost every one. The ability to rage in a fight may very well have been beaten out of me. It is not something I tap into as a source of battlefield prowess... but I'm also not a great fighter.

Sean

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:59 pm

I'm not sure. After a lot of years, the specific level of restraint required by SCA fighting (hard but friendly competition among equals, with no intention to harm, never striking as hard as I can) is so ingrained in me that it's automatic, and I can have fun without worrying about it. "The beast" gets to come out just a bit on the happy occasions when I'm in a melee and find myself dealing with two or more opponents at once.

The only time (in an SCA context) that I wanted to hurt somebody, not just best them, was an unpleasant experience, and not to my credit. If I ever find myself feeling that way on the field again, I'll take a break untiil it passes.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:16 pm

When I am on the field, I want my opponent to be off the leash. Thats what I am there for.

I have taken the personal responsibility to protect myself by staying in relatively good shape and by wearing effective armour. I have protected the organization by signing a waiver of my right to sue if mischance occurs, and I am injured. A risk I happily, nay , joyously, take.

This is what I owe you, Glaukos, so that you can let the beast off the leash.

I must trust my opponents to have done the same, so that I can in good conscience , slip my own tether.

Roibeard de Reid MacOscar · Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:42 pm

Though I have not yet Had the honor of meeting you on the field, I shall be sure to curse you with the fleas of a thousand camels, and call you a vagabond so that I may have you best.

Until then keep having fun and play the mental game.

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:54 pm

So I see people talking about it on a logical level but no one on an emotional one.

I don't have an answer for you, to be honest. I find that 'beast' coming out in me on rare occasion and I don't realize it until later.

I think it just comes with time and understanding to some but to most it doesn't come at all. Maybe relax...have fun...and have a couple of people ramp you up in whatever way is effective.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:12 pm

My inner beast doesn't come out onto the SCA field. My inner puppy does

:lol:

I'm out there to have fun and play hard. The objective is to do my best and the score keeping method is, generally, did I win the fight.

I've had a very small number of occasions when something happened that triggered a purely reflexive action on my part. A couple of those have involved people regaining consciousness, so I really try not to go there (as a rule it takes someone/something pushing me there).

I do not let my beast take part in play fighting. It does not play well with others.

AndreasMorgan · Post by **AndreasMorgan** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:48 pm

Being a beast does not necessarily entail losing control. A friend of mine uses a neat email signature that I really like "A beast I am lest a beast I become."

Andreas

mongrel · Post by **mongrel** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:25 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:When I am on the field, I want my opponent to be off the leash. Thats what I am there for.

I have taken the personal responsibility to protect myself by staying in relatively good shape and by wearing effective armour. I have protected the organization by signing a waiver of my right to sue if mischance occurs, and I am injured. A risk I happily, nay , joyously, take.

This is what I owe you, Glaukos, so that you can let the beast off the leash.

I must trust my opponents to have done the same, so that I can in good conscience , slip my own tether.

Agreed ten fold. This sport has risks and one of those risks is finding that one guy that's just a hair crazier than you. That one fighter that's willing to go that extra bit you're afraid to (not you personally just in general). I put on my armor knowing I could take it off broken and bruised and i expect my opponent (friend or unknown person) to be well aware of this same fact. That's one of the things that drives me to fight as often as i can. This my way of life both on and of the field and I fight like its my life on the line. In my opinion, if you don't fight as if each strike is your last then you have much to regret as a fighter. :twisted:

Hartmann · Post by **Hartmann** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:13 am

I started out as an adrenalin fighter, but I had to control that for tactical reasons. Ifound that too much adrenalin affected both defence and calibration (a bad combination...).

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:27 am

I teach my folks to have the mindset of an early medieval gentleman - this is what I do for a living, nothing personal, this is just business.

I think having a level of detachment when you go on the field leads to a more effective if less rabid style. I can't for the life of me remember the writer who described roman training as a bloodless battle, and their warfare as a bloody drill.

On the other hand maybe delivering the paen before entering the field would inspire the gods to aid you in achieving battle madness

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:15 am

mordreth wrote:I can't for the life of me remember the writer who described roman training as a bloodless battle, and their warfare as a bloody drill.

I believe that was Josephus.

white mountain armoury · Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:33 am

I have had anger issues since I was pretty young.
A carbon copy of my father.
It almost killed him, I was able to observe that and make the needed changes to not let it happen to me.
I am not on the field with an axe to grind, or on the field when angry.
To me its against the spirit of the game.
For me anger also dulls my senses, I am at my best when I am light hearted and having fun.
I think kicking someones ass and having mine kicked is fun.
If I am not enjoying myself or become angry I leave the field.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:16 am

I have almost never been angry on the SCA field. When I am at my most unhinged I am usually laughing my ass off.

white mountain armoury · Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:03 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:I have almost never been angry on the SCA field. When I am at my most unhinged I am usually laughing my ass off.

Thats how you tell when someone is not right in the head

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:17 pm

Can you be a good fighter if you have no beast?

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:20 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Can you be a good fighter if you have no beast?

absolutely. the person who is utterly ice-cold calm is the one you watch, as they're not impaired by that red mist.

It's an interesting thread, however, as I'm currently in a similar-ish situation... I've recently moved house, and that's forced me to change practice groups.

unfortunately, the group in my local area are... well.
They're the sort of people who do reenactment and aim for the other guy's weapon...
I aim for the other guy's throat.
Now, yes, in a reenactment battle, part of it is show, for the spectators - you dont simply do the one-strike kill as it's not going to interest the punters... but I've very much focused for years now, on doing it as a proper martial art too.

I know that in comparision to them, I am lethally agressive. I have no compulsions about stepping forward into long point that will drive a longsword into their face; I have no hesitation whatsoever if the range is right to follow through, slam a blade or polearm into their throat as I get a knee behind them, and send them onto the ground. I expect to give no quarter,... and I expect no quarter from my opponent either. They have target areas, my only target rule for years now is not to cause actual injury.

and it's a worry. I'm not angry, I'm calm, relaxed, I can even chat and talk while fighting, discussing each member's faults and missed openings. but I feel that I'm on an entirely different level of hostile aggression, in terms of the expectation to convey a fight.

and I honestly dont know if what I'm doing is "wrong". I know I'm already forcing myself not to take the openings I can see, and I worry that the difference of attitude will result in trouble.

(I'm mostly just babbling my own unspoken worries here, now, I should add.)

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:15 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Can you be a good fighter if you have no beast?

I think 'the beast' is a side effect of mental wiring and body chemistry output. It's (in part) how quickly and how strongly your adrenal gland secretes the endorphins into your bloodstream and how it affects the fight or flight reflex. That boosts muscle strength, increases pain endurance, reduces response time, hightens periperal awareness as well as focus and causes some people to experience 'time dilation' which may be the brain responding faster to threats or it may be that the memory is burned in in greater detail... But too much causes erratic muscle control, over focusing and loss of tactical awareness. It is the dinosaur brain that inside the fight or flight reflex.

It personally takes a lot to get my adrenilin up. I've been in near death situations (usually loosing control while driving) that I have pulled out of without my pulse changing. I have had guns fired unexpectedly in my vicinity and other then a brief flinch have turned to find out the problem. If anything fighting in the SCA has actually DECREASED my adrenilin response. What in regular life could be scarier then 2000 screaming lunatics all wanting to kill each other with wooden sticks?

As to whether or not someone can become a good fighter without a beast... well I'm not yet a great fighter. I don't know if I'm good or not. I have to aproach the game differently and for different reasons to motivate myself. I will say that I miss the surge of energy that other people describe. It would be useful at times... but I hope it's not necessary. I'd hate to never reach the rank of 'good' even if I can't be 'great'.

Sean

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:34 pm

AndreasMorgan wrote:A friend of mine uses a neat email signature that I really like "A beast I am lest a beast I become."

"If we weren't all crazy, we would go insane."

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:41 pm

The beast comes out in me, I retire the field immediately, if not for the entire event. The beast will never rule me again. For almost 30 years now I barely have let him peak out. He's the one that smiled back at my drill sergeants at Basic Training, and had eight Airborne Ranger Drill Sergeants ask me to "please stop smiling" because they feared for their lives due to my smile.

The beast was out ONCE when I was 11 years old, and someone paid for that with their life. And I have never felt so alive and joyous in my life.

Sometimes I let him speak, if I think everyone will think I'm merely joking. The beast also does my last ten pushups on the PT test, but that's OK with me.

On the field I have two opponents. One is standing in front of me. The other is the "real me".

The beast is the killer inside me. The one who enjoys killing on a primal level, and probably enjoys it more than any other thing in existance. Darkness is not an old friend, and I make sure not to talk to him again.

The armour could be considered a containment suit I guess.

-Aaron

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:50 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Can you be a good fighter if you have no beast?

I'm not sure what the answer to that is. However, I can say that one can be a very good fighter without letting the beast be involved.

I have very strict governors on what I permit myself to do in the SCA fighting context. I play by and within the rules.

For me, the beast only has one rule - it wins, defined as walks away under its own power with whatever threat there was eliminated. I don't do that with my friends, I don't go there for fun. I try to not go there period.

Would I have had as much success in SCA fighting if there were no beast ?
I can't say.

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:29 pm

Aaron wrote:The beast was out ONCE when I was 11 years old, and someone paid for that with their life. And I have never felt so alive and joyous in my life.

What's the story behind that?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:07 pm

Call me

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:07 pm

Not letting the beast out is how I lost my first martial-arts tourney. I was 17 and pretty nervous and they set me up with this other guy.

Too break the ice I went and shook his hand and said hello. Then shook his hand again before the fight. We both laughed and smiled and talked about fighting in the tourney etc. The problem was, doing all this at this moment made me think of him as a nice guy, a sparring partner etc. But not what he actually was, my opponent.

When he speared my and took me down I caught his head in my arm and had him in a pretty tight headlock. The reff made us go back to the center of the mat and when we reset back up i decided to let go of his head since "i did not want to hurt him". This cost me the match and the gold metal and lost my teacher the prestige he could have gained from having his student get a gold.

The thing I failed to realize was that both my opponent and I were both here, protected by rules made for our safety, fighting together because we wanted too. if i was hurting him all he had to do was tap out and it'd been over.

Let the beast out Glaukos. You don't have to become a raging , vile monster when you do it. But like Nissan said. You're both armored up, protecting yourself, have signed waivers and more. After the fight congratulate your opponent if he won or shake his hand if you beat him.

You have nothing be ashamed of.

Leopold der Wolf · Post by **Leopold der Wolf** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:33 pm

One more thing about the whole beast deal. I think the "beast" is the bodies natural state of combat readiness. Your no longer walking around in a stage white (kinda daydreaming, lost in your mind). You've entered a stage yellow (mind focused on the issue at hand, body ready to respond to the here and now) or more dangerously a stage red (You're shaking, looking around, amped up on adrenaline). if you ever go into stage black..then thats when its BAD. The rational mind has retreated into the back of your brain and you've gone from "Fun day fighting with fellow enthusiasts" to "Fight or flight" thats when you see crazy stuff happen like a guy suddenly breaking down into tears in the middle of a fight or when weapons get throw and someone throws a gauntleted haymaker into another fighters face or just starts screaming.

The stages all equate to how fast your heart is beating and what your human brain is doing in relation to the lizard brain.

If you can amp yourself up enough to get into a stage yellow where you're focused on the fight, aware of the world around you and ready to fight you'll be good to go. Go any farther and thats when stuff gets crazy and unsafe. Basically its what your gym teacher/coach etc has always said "Get your mind in the game!"

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:33 pm

As much as I love this game, I've never given in to, as dramatic as the term seems to me,"the beast". I'm all too familiar with it and it's never extended toward this game.
I used to bounce at a club in Ybor City. For anyone that hasn't met me outside of armour, I'm 5-10, 140. Not big at all. And I didn't get the job due to looks; I got the job because, simply, I know how to handle myself. This isn't some alpha-male braggadocio, it's just an honest assessment. I've been in the middle of brawls that were twenty deep and full of enraged, drunken skinheads. I've choked out fellas 100 pounds heavier than me. I've taken knives away from idiots that pulled them on me. Those times required a certain resolve, swallowing the thought of failure and doing what needed to be done; even if that meant injuring and/or incapacitating the other person, brutally and without hesitation before it escalated into someone else getting hurt.

And I don't bring that into this game at all.

That said, I do experience a certain clarity of focus in melees that equates to what happens during brawls. And this makes me smile at the random chaos of the situation; the ability to pick and choose your engagement.
I'm slowly trying to become a better tourney fighter --I'm terrible-- but my first love will always be melee and the feelings it elicits.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:38 pm

I'm afraid I have no beast. And without the inner rage to drive you in combat, you are an empty shell of technical ability. This is how I felt in Hapkido.

I need to find the beast.

Steve

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:54 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I need to find the beast.

Here Steve.

You're welcome.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:17 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:Can you be a good fighter if you have no beast?

a babboon can fight with an amazing level of ferocity, but it probably can't enter the void, so I have to think from a book of five rings basis oh yeah, big time

Donald St. Colin · Post by **Donald St. Colin** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:55 am

I have recognised for years now that I have two sides to my personality. One is nice, polite and reasonable. My everyday personality. Then there is the one I think of as "the flip side". That is the one that kept me alive at war. The one that keeps me uninjured while fighting on the job. It is not nice, polite, or reasonable. I don't let that one play with nice people. Its a sport, no need for a beast.

ThorvaldR Skegglauss · Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:10 am

Domnall wrote:I have recognised for years now that I have two sides to my personality. One is nice, polite and reasonable. My everyday personality. Then there is the one I think of as "the flip side". That is the one that kept me alive at war. The one that keeps me uninjured while fighting on the job. It is not nice, polite, or reasonable. I don't let that one play with nice people. Its a sport, no need for a beast.

Agreed.

I don't let that person out.

Glaukos, just keep having fun. The beast is not someone to bring out to play with others. He is meant for survival.

Thorvaldr

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:39 am

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I'm afraid I have no beast. And without the inner rage to drive you in combat, you are an empty shell of technical ability. This is how I felt in Hapkido.

I need to find the beast.

Steve

That may be where *you* need to go.

I one hundred percent guarantee that it is not where my drive in SCA combat comes from. In my specific case, rage means things around me break. It's absolutely unacceptable for *me* to let that aspect have any part in SCA fighting.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:07 am

I'm having waaay to much fun to "let the beast out". Never felt I was in a position where I needed to - that is a part of me that comes out when I (or more importantly, those I care about) are in REAL danger of harm.

Never got to that point in any sport I've done. Football, rugby, boxing, various martial arts - never in competition.

Frankly, the rules of the list pretty much go against that, no?

I have never hit someone as hard as I am capable of in 20+ years of SCA combat.

And if I ever get to that point, I'll walk away.

.

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:31 pm

Emotional content, not anger. This is the appropriate place for emotion and intensity, but not anger.

Kind of like enlightenment, the path to that place is different for everyone. I just decided one day that I wanted to the be threat. With each opponent I thought to myself "I love you, man, but you have to die right now." It seems to work for me.

I don't always win but my threat level went up and my fighting ability increased. My opponents also have to raise their intensity or lose, which means I have to get better, etc, etc.

I hope this helps a bit.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:59 pm

a babboon can fight with an amazing level of ferocity, but it probably can't enter the void, so I have to think from a book of five rings basis oh yeah, big time

I would say that the primitive motivation of savage ferocity of the baboon is, in fact, the very beast we are talking about.

See I've seen the beast in the eyes of other, highly effective martial artists. I don't know how to describe it.

Steve

Having too much fun

Having too much fun

Re: Having too much fun