Rules, Conventions, and Groin Targeting

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

So, I am forking this manually from the CA thread.

I mentioned, off topic that the West Kingdom has the following additional rule:

16. It is considered discourteous and dangerous to intentionally target the groin area.
If such blows are thrown repeatedly, it shall be presumed to be a violation of the
Rules of the Lists - number six.

I had actually quoted it in more drastic fashion, saying that all intentional targeting was considered to be a violation of the R.O.L.

I was further queried on the fact that "how can you have an illegal target struck at a legal target area" - because you do have to take the shot. To me, the answer is the same as if a blow is "excessive". It's still GOOD, it's just against the rules (in this case, rule 1).

Alfred of Carlyle disagreed... prompting me to fork the thread.

I still think the rule is a good one -- even in the "emasculated" form -- because it specifies that among western fighters, the groin is not targeted. This means, that if you get hit in the jimmy, you expect an apology. You do NOT expect "well, it's a legal target" (a quote I have heard often in my travels).

This is a straw man, Sig. I realize it's not necessarily yours, but the rationalization is fallacious. It is nothing like excessive force. Excessive force only applies to legal targets. Legal targets are those you may intentionally strike to effect a change in the disposition of the fight. If you cannot intentionally throw at the groin, then all blows are not to be counted, even those that accidentally land. Otherwise, every blow that lands there is "accidental", and I can already predict what that discussion will sound like ...

What I meant, Alfred was that you have to take the "illegal" groin (or strictly speaking, discourteous, blow) just as you must take the "excessive" shot to a less tender target.

And while the wording may be ambiguous (it is after all, in a Marshall's handbook) the interpretion is universally as I have stated it. We don't target the cup on purpose, if we do get hit there we take it, and if we do get it there we say "sorry m'lord, are you OK?" (incidentally, this is almost exactly what people say everywhere when they hit someone "excessively")

Finally -- your fears are unfounded, as this is exactly how the game works. The "punishment" for some theoretical base villain who IS intentionally targeting the groin but denies it is the same for that of someone intentionally shucking blows - nothing at all, but lack of renown.

[hrolf]

crotch and armpits are really good ways of making the very thick fighter take shots, though.

[Sascha St. Martin]

word, protect yo junk. it IS a legal target.
Just sayin'

[Gethin]

word, protect yo junk. it IS a legal target.
Just sayin'

In your Kingdom...yes, yes it is.
Mind you, no one that I have fought in the West will disregard a cup shot, just as I have never had someone target my cup. Every time I have been hit there was becouse I moved the intended target and put my cup in the way.
Which is the whole point, I think. It is considered dangerous and unbecoming to intentionally target the groin in the culture of the kingdom of the West

[carlyle]

Thanks for trying to clarify, Sig; it serves me right for not going and reading the ROL before commenting.

The passage that Sig is citing is actually in a section titled, "Western Customs", a uniquely West Kingdom addition under, "Convention of Combat, Behavior on the Field." This is a reasonable description of our custom, but unless it is the intent of the EM to give this the force of law, it is still only a custom. This is as it should be, since it leaves the judgement of "intent" to the mechanism of renown. My only concern is that, in light of the BoD's recent willingness to enforce "customs" in adjudicating disputes; making this a part of the ROL further exposes the West to outsiders telling us when we have, or have not, adhered to our own sense of propriety. If, on the other hand, the EM believes it is now equal to an actual rule, it needs to be stated as such -- and then all of my previous criticisms apply.

With thanks... Alfred

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

It is an interesting "rule" to add. Except in armour as worn scenarios I don't think I have ever had anyone intentionally aim for the cup. I sure have been hit there often enough by voiding my leg and not getting my shield down in time. Or my opponent went for the inside thigh and i moved.
It is considered discourteous just about everywhere.

Now the real question, how do you determine they are doing it intentionally? A thrust to the belly could be blocked low, a shot to the inside leg could be slightly off target or target moved. etc etc...

Oh I take it back, I have one time intentionally hit someone in the groin. When i was legged and they tried that silly thrust between their legs, I simply lifted up my shield HARD forcing his own sword up into his groin.

He didn't take it but he sure didn't try that shot again.

regards
Thorvaldr

[Malcolm_Mor]

The key word is "Intentional."

[Cedric]

Now the real question, how do you determine they are doing it intentionally?

When they say to you "excuse me, milord, but was there something wrong with that cup shot? I can throw it harder next time if you prefer..." then you know it was intentional.

And yes, I have had someone say that to me...

[asbrand]

At fighter practice tonight, I personally witnessed *5* cup shots. All from the same fighter. And not a single one was "intentional". Sometimes, crap just happens. *shrug*

[Hartmann]

Oh I take it back, I have one time intentionally hit someone in the groin. When i was legged and they tried that silly thrust between their legs, I simply lifted up my shield HARD forcing his own sword up into his groin.

He didn't take it but he sure didn't try that shot again.

When I started, we were still on East Kingdom rules, mid eighties edition... they specifically prohibited targeting the groin. No question of custom then.

[Kilkenny]

There was a very specific change to the SCA combat rules that made the groin a legal target. It's not one I've ever understood, honestly.

I'm completely in line with the West's view on such blows. I don't intentionally throw them, I take them when they land on me. Actually, I take it a step further than the West does, according to what I'm reading, as I will routinely tell my opponent that I didn't intend to hit there and they are welcome to continue the bout when they are ready.

Anyone care to name a sport in which it is not considered off base if not a flat out foul to go for the junk ?

And in SCA fighting it happens, very much intentionally. Had a squire of mine transported to the emergency room after some spear wielder, while my squire was on her knees, lifted her fauld and very intentionally hammered her hard to the groin. Really wish I had got an ID on that one

[Baron Alcyoneus]

word, protect yo junk. it IS a legal target.
Just sayin'

If yours is junk, why protect it?

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Now the real question, how do you determine they are doing it intentionally?

When they say to you "excuse me, milord, but was there something wrong with that cup shot? I can throw it harder next time if you prefer..." then you know it was intentional.

And yes, I have had someone say that to me...

This got me to thinking about a common practice which I have been taught and that most others that I have met adhere to.

"Always take the cup shot even if it is light because you don't want them to throw it harder."

but on the other hand it happens like most of say it does most of the time, as accidental as a result of movement or whatever than..... shouldn't we NOT take it if it was light.

Reasoning being that if the blow had hit the original intended location it may have had enough force and since it DIDN'T hit the original target it was actually "LIGHT".

I am not talking about the occasional jerk who throws it intentionally. With the above question. Because then you know what if you did throw at my groin intentionally and it was light than again it was LIGHT and since he is such an ass as to target that area he can either make it good to complete his assedness or target elsewhere.

hmmmm this will require some personal thought....

Thorvaldr

[mordreth]

So back in the mists of time we had a high level unbelted fighter come to a largish local event - he lived out kingdom.
There were a number of blows to the groin in the course of the day, when asked the guy replied that groin was legal in the middle, and we should learn how to block better.
Long and short someone got a picture of one of our fighters in a female horse stance, with his back to the visiting gentleman, his naginata was between the mans legs, and the gents feet were clearly about six inches off the ground

The point was made that just because we don't do something you shouldn't figure we can't do something.

[olaf haraldson]

crotch and armpits are really good ways of making the very thick fighter take shots, though.

Nah, not the crotch... stick your spear right in the hollow of the ilium and watch them fold up.

[Eirik]

I find this very interesting.

Let me pose this question, if I may, to those for whom cupshots are not exactly legal:

Do we call accidental shin shots? Or accidental hand shots?

... and yet we call accidental cupshots, even though they are not legal target areas. Hmmmm....


In any event, I've gotten to fight the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids using their fighting conventions, which permited the groin as a legal target. I expected to receive groin shots, and did. One learns to defend while in Rome, doing as the Romans .

Now, whether or not YOU target the groin when playing "crotch-legal".... well, now, is that a question of honor?

Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

I know, for me, my honor does not permit it. I am old school SCA and still live by the old adage "the primary objective is nobody gets hurt."
I kind of like to add the corrollary: make it fun for everyone.



Just my copper arm ring's worth....

[Maeryk]

I find this very interesting.

Let me pose this question, if I may, to those for whom cupshots are not exactly legal:

Do we call accidental shin shots? Or accidental hand shots?

... and yet we call accidental cupshots, even though they are not legal target areas. Hmmmm....


In any event, I've gotten to fight the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids using their fighting conventions, which permited the groin as a legal target. I expected to receive groin shots, and did. One learns to defend while in Rome, doing as the Romans .

Now, whether or not YOU target the groin when playing "crotch-legal".... well, now, is that a question of honor?

Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

I know, for me, my honor does not permit it. I am old school SCA and still live by the old adage "the primary objective is nobody gets hurt."
I kind of like to add the corrollary: make it fun for everyone.



Just my copper arm ring's worth....

You are confusing "indestructable" with "illegal". Shins, hands, etc, are indestructable. And not to be targeted in any event.

Jiggly bits are legal kill zones, just not to be intentionally targeted.

[Hrolfr]

Don't be a dick pretty much sums it up.

I don't target groins, and no one I know well does either.

[Maeryk]

Don't be a dick pretty much sums it up.

I don't target groins, and no one I know well does either.

Nope.. I've only ever run into one situation that wasn't my own stupidity (stepping into a thigh shot) where people could be inferred to be "targeting groins".

It was a bridge at Pennsic.. 21, I think? Where there were no face-thrusts allowed, yet the opposite side was BLASTING people in the face with spears and going "you don't have to take that" and then doing it again, as well as firing at the ground, continually, to have the spear jump up under the shields of the kneeling front line, and several people (myself included) got nuked in the cup. Intentional? I dunno. But with all the face-thrusty BS involved, I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[Hartmann]

Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

The latter. That's the way I was brought up.

[Malcolm_Mor]

Two things I never call light - face thrusts and cup shots.

I had one guy who was constantly opening himself up to cup shots during a practicce, and I finally thrust there with face force, stepped back, and said "Being nice on the cup shot, mate." He said it was light, so we continued.

Never targeted him there, but I took him aside later, explained my views to him, and told him that if he ran into someone who targeted him, hard, then he had lost his right to complain.

Likewise, though, if you have a "cup hunter," well, let's just say a lot of things "accidentally" happen in a melee press. I pay very little heed to their complaints abut it.

You get what you give. I may not do it - in fact, I won't do it - but sooner or later someone is going to get upset abut having someone go for the nads, and - OOOPSIE! - the baskethilt winds up smashed in the face, or the thrust to the pit, or whatever. The consequence is predictable. I repeat, you get what you give. Get technical on "rules" and expect someone else to get technical as well.

Or you can be a gentleman. You call - either way - on giving and receiving cup shots. Give and take them like a gentleman (or lady) and you may cheerfully claim that. Or not. No skin off my tail. But if one is a cup hunter, or call cup shots light, well, don't look to me to want to appear for you in a marshal's court if you call foul. On almost ANYTHING, except the most egregious violations that cannot be given the benefit of the doubt. You have made your choice to place yourself outside the bounds of civilized and genteel conventions, and chosen the path of hyper-technicality. Live by it. Die by it.

I choose to avoid intentional targeting of armpits, crotches, and the throat. All can do permanent serious injury, and all are hard as hell, no, make that virtually impossible, to armor fully. I'd rather lose crown tourney than stand there and watch someone be carted off on a gurney for my intentional action.

Things do happen. 99.9% of the time, people are shocked and apologetic as hell when it does. The gut thrust that gets deflected down, or the step into a shot - I take it. And since I don't target those areas, my apology for doing it means something.

[Balin50]

Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

[Cisco]

At fighter practice tonight, I personally witnessed *5* cup shots. All from the same fighter. And not a single one was "intentional". Sometimes, crap just happens. *shrug*

*sighs* I felt really...really bad. But by my count it was only 4.

Needless to say I just stopped throwing anywhere near legs altogether at that point...

But yeah. Never intentional. I'm not sure if it's a Meridian thing or not but we have a similar custom about the neck. Don't aim for the cup, don't aim for the neck. Both are legal shots (here).

[Maeryk]

Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

So is your armpit. Most of us avoid doing that to people we like, because we want them to be able to drink a beer later.

We reap what we sow. Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

[Malcolm_Mor]

Do you not target the groin because it is illegal, or because your honor does not permit it?

My honor does not permit it. And I will happily offer you a drink, my lord, and you are at Pennsic, to demonstrate my sorrow that such things happen at Border Raids. My household has cousins down in your neck of the woods, and several of your Kingdom have camped with us; I enjoy Border Raids as I am Southern Born, appreciate that ya'll just love a good whomping session, and hold your Kingdom in the highest esteem.

Look me up in X-11 if you are there.

[Hrolfr]

Don't be a dick pretty much sums it up.

I don't target groins, and no one I know well does either.

Nope.. I've only ever run into one situation that wasn't my own stupidity (stepping into a thigh shot) where people could be inferred to be "targeting groins".

It was a bridge at Pennsic.. 21, I think? Where there were no face-thrusts allowed, yet the opposite side was BLASTING people in the face with spears and going "you don't have to take that" and then doing it again, as well as firing at the ground, continually, to have the spear jump up under the shields of the kneeling front line, and several people (myself included) got nuked in the cup. Intentional? I dunno. But with all the face-thrusty BS involved, I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

M, that was kinda tongue-in-cheek, ya know, groin, cupshot, dick

I've been hit there a couple times, only once not my fault. The MiC had some 'words' to the person who WAS targeting the cup, saying even tho it was a legal target, it was in bad taste. That person got the idea after another he cupped earlier returned the 'favor'.

[Dafydd]

Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

I see what you did there.

[Balin50]

Legal target if it is open i will try to hit it.

Balin

So is your armpit. Most of us avoid doing that to people we like, because we want them to be able to drink a beer later.

We reap what we sow. Hitting people in the junk intentionally is a dick move, period.

Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Block your groin if it hurts when you get hit in the groin your armor is not working. I mean would you continue to wear a helmet that hurt when you got hit in it?

Balin

[Maeryk]

Yeah! I was agreeing with you.. I realize my "nope" seems a bit non-contextual, but it was an agreement with "nobody I like does it either".

Sorry.. I write like I talk.

[Cisco]

This got me to thinking about a common practice which I have been taught and that most others that I have met adhere to.

"Always take the cup shot even if it is light because you don't want them to throw it harder."

but on the other hand it happens like most of say it does most of the time, as accidental as a result of movement or whatever than..... shouldn't we NOT take it if it was light.

Thorvaldr

editing mine

My answer is a resounding no to this one Thorvaldr, and I'll explain why.

Every now and then I will misstep and a stick will be going right for my crotch. Usually, especially with experienced fighters, they will realize where it's headed and try to pull all of the power out of it.

Now, chances are, they won't be able to pull the shot completely.

And those shots land light, even to most Meridian standards. And I take them. I take them because someone had a kill shot on me and tried to pull it to stop me from being hurt. Somewhat odd in a sport where we hit each other with sticks, I realize. But generally speaking, if someone pulls a shot to be nice to me, I will take that shot.

Even if they hit me light in the thigh (and miss the cup altogether). I feel that I can often tell, in my opponent's eyes, whether they had the "OH MY GOD THAT'S GOING TO HIT HIM IN THE CUP!!!" thought and pulled the shot. I've asked people if they pulled it b/c they thought it was going to hit me in the junk.

And, for what it's worth, I've lost tourney fights and thanked the person for pulling what wasn't even a cup shot (but it was close enough to scare them, and I'm thinking shots that went just high of the cup, if it was wide it would be a leg shot and not a kill).

I certainly don't expect others to do it but I will always err on the side of caution on cup shots. Probably b/c I am so attached to my junk.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Can't think of any good reason to deliberately target the cup, armpit or throat.



.

[audax]

I do not intentionally target the groin, it's just bloody rude and I always apologize if I hit someone there.

It is pure asshattery to target the cup, legal target or not.

[asbrand]

At fighter practice tonight, I personally witnessed *5* cup shots. All from the same fighter. And not a single one was "intentional". Sometimes, crap just happens. *shrug*

*sighs* I felt really...really bad. But by my count it was only 4.

Needless to say I just stopped throwing anywhere near legs altogether at that point...

But yeah. Never intentional. I'm not sure if it's a Meridian thing or not but we have a similar custom about the neck. Don't aim for the cup, don't aim for the neck. Both are legal shots (here).

Oooops...sorry, 4 then. My bad.

And, I've been a Meridian for 25+ years...and I have never once been told, or heard, that neck shots are "discouraged". *shrug*

Might just be a regional South Downs thing...

[Blaine de Navarre]

It's really simple. All of us occasionally have a shot go wild, but if you make a habit of hitting people in the jimmy on purpose, it will get around. If you're the kind of person who likes having the people you play with all think you're a dickwad, then rock on, it's a legal target.

[AEiric Orvender]

I’ve only been “cuppedâ€