14th cen Surcoat patterns

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:55 pm

What are good sources for surcoat patterns, and recommended fabrics?
I'm sick and tired of square cut tabards.
But I'm trying to do the style similar to Thomas Cheyne. (see effigy below).

My thinking is it needs to be an hourglass shape.
Also, what kinds of fabrics are appropriate for this garment? (I assume silk velvet is okay? how about single color brocades instead of diapering the fabric?)

-Cian

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:34 pm

That hourglass shape is achieved with appropriate armour underneath (globose BP to give the pigeon breasted/wasp waisted appearance) and laces on the sides to cinch things up.

I bet Reconstructing History has a surcote pattern or two.

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:44 pm

I do wear a globose and have a properly fitted gambeson with the wasp waist. And I made a tabbard with inset arm-holes and cinched up sides, but it still doesn't look quite right. It's close but no cigar. See attached pics.

I'm thinking I need to possibly made it in panels and have it come in tighter at the waist and flare out at the base perhaps.

The one pictured is okay for the household because I'm not supposed to have anything too fancy. Yet I would like something that looks proper for the period (maybe with populace badge) and I just can't seem to wrap my head around the problem.
-Cian

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:46 pm

That sort of jupon (jupon it is), likely laced up the sides - I think there may be artistic evidence for this - it would possibly have a seperate peplum, and the cut of the front and back would be 'hour glassed', to ensuree the fashionable snug cover.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:48 pm

chef de chambre wrote:That sort of jupon (jupon it is), likely laced up the sides - I think there may be artistic evidence for this - it would possibly have a seperate peplum, and the cut of the front and back would be 'hour glassed', to ensuree the fashionable snug cover.

There's at least one example of the side lacing on this garment in the Romance of Alexander. But I can't dig through it now to figure out which one.

(New laptop, all of my files are still trapped on the old one...)

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:57 pm

My wife tells me they all make me look fat!
:sad:

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:04 pm

That is so wrong! (my girlfriend tells me I'm fat all the time...and she's right).

So, I'm guessing Chef that maybe something like this would work.. Atleast...possibly better then the flat square I have now.

But I'm curious if that's realistic, or if they would have done it in quarter panels around the body (even if they're not trying to parti-color it). Or maybe I just need to stick with the square idea and use stretchy fabric like a wool???
-Cian

I. Stewart · Post by **I. Stewart** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:12 pm

This is the effigy that comes to mind for me. Not a lot of clues to patterning, but you can clearly see the side lacings.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:36 pm

I. Stewart, that is a fantastic photo and great evidence of how spiral lacing looks in this time period. If anyone is cross-lacing, take heed and don't do it anymore. Do what you see in the picture above.

As for a jupon pattern, you could adapt the body panels from my pattern pretty easily for that style. Just thought I'd mention it.

The pattern diagram you posted, Cian, would result in quite a dramatic flare coming off the hips. Unless you want it to literally bell outward, I'd curve the bottom flare so that it is facing straight up and down by the time it reaches the hem. Also, depends on the fabric you used. If you used a silk, for instance, it would lay down, but then you'd have a skirt-like drape. If you use anything stiffer (linen, some wools, certainly cotton), you'll get that severe bell effect.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:41 pm

I did spiral lacing on my last arming cote and I was pleasantly surprised at how well it held.

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:55 pm

Tasha McG wrote:As for a jupon pattern, you could adapt the body panels from my pattern pretty easily for that style. Just thought I'd mention it.

Your pattern is on the top of my list of 'to do's' once I'm gainfully employed. So far I can't seem to get ahead with my part-time work. This weekend I got an extra $40 in my pocket and I was all "YES! $40 to spend baby!" and about 30 minutes later I was in my car and a cop pulled me over and gave me a speeding ticket for $50.

Just doing my part to help the economy along.
-Cian

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:01 pm

Charlotte J wrote:There's at least one example of the side lacing on this garment in the Romance of Alexander. But I can't dig through it now to figure out which one.

There are quite a number in the RoA, I was taking a survay when I had down time at my last job but never did finish. I. Stewart posted the other example that comes to mind.

My RoA jupon is going to side lace when I finish it.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:37 pm

Side-lacing examples:
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/m ... 64/67r.jpg (from Romance of Alexander)
http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=KNL11

See also http://larsdatter.com/mens-surcoats.htm

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:49 am

Tasha McG wrote:I. Stewart, that is a fantastic photo and great evidence of how spiral lacing looks in this time period. If anyone is cross-lacing, take heed and don't do it anymore. Do what you see in the picture above.

As for a jupon pattern, you could adapt the body panels from my pattern pretty easily for that style. Just thought I'd mention it.

The pattern diagram you posted, Cian, would result in quite a dramatic flare coming off the hips. Unless you want it to literally bell outward, I'd curve the bottom flare so that it is facing straight up and down by the time it reaches the hem. Also, depends on the fabric you used. If you used a silk, for instance, it would lay down, but then you'd have a skirt-like drape. If you use anything stiffer (linen, some wools, certainly cotton), you'll get that severe bell effect.

That sort of a flared peplum is appropriate for a 15th century garment/livery. I would think it should actually be hourglass shaped to match the waist of the fauld.

The more pronounded the waist, the more pronounced the hourglass shape of the garment laid out flat, the less pronounced the waist, the more gentle the curve inward and out again - but NEVER a straight line at the waist so it is a tube with no waist.

The pattern laid out above in this thread is a V at the waist when you lay it out on the side, it should be a gentle U, I think.

Galfrid atte grene · Post by **Galfrid atte grene** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:33 pm

I have at least one other example of jupon side stitching on an effigy, if needed, though the one already posted is pretty clear.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:51 am

Speaking to the original effigy, what do we think we are seeing there?

The outer garment, the jupon, is this a separate garment worn over the body armour? I think so.

Look at the bottom edge of the jupon. There appear to be dags or scales. Are these part of the jupon, or are they part of the armour or arming coat underneath?

What sort of torso armour is worn under this jupon? Is it a coat of plates?

Steve

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:22 pm

chef de chambre wrote:The more pronounded the waist, the more pronounced the hourglass shape of the garment laid out flat, the less pronounced the waist, the more gentle the curve inward and out again - but NEVER a straight line at the waist so it is a tube with no waist.

<ahem> I guess I picked the wrong century for my body type.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:50 pm

Strongbow wrote: I guess I picked the wrong century for my body type.

You and me, too, brother.

Effingham

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:04 pm

Ah, but the cunning armourer provides the waist, as the breastplate isn't supposed to be flat. There should be a slight waist between breastplate and fauld. In example, although centuries off, look at some of Henry VIII later harnesses - I bet he beat many of us in weight, yet his harness has a waist.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:57 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Ah, but the cunning armourer provides the waist, as the breastplate isn't supposed to be flat. There should be a slight waist between breastplate and fauld. In example, although centuries off, look at some of Henry VIII later harnesses - I bet he beat many of us in weight, yet his harness has a waist.

I bet he don't beat me.... :twisted:

I just wish I was built to look as good as some of the effgies....Might have to look up some of Henrys later stuff when he was a getting near my size...

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:27 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Ah, but the cunning armourer provides the waist, as the breastplate isn't supposed to be flat. There should be a slight waist between breastplate and fauld. In example, although centuries off, look at some of Henry VIII later harnesses - I bet he beat many of us in weight, yet his harness has a waist.

Actually, you're right. My breast plate (and soon-to-be-made fauld) do provide me a "waist" though not as pronounced as in the effigies. Maybe one day I'll get that look.... but not for now.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:36 pm

Guy Dawkins wrote:My wife tells me they all make me look fat!

Your ass makes THEM look fat.

Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:40 pm

Hey Chef,

If I can pick your brain....

Do you know the typical construction of this sort of garment? They look pretty beefy... I'm guessing a fine layer over a stouter base layer? Maybe silk over hemp canvas?