SCA and Knee Fighting- Do I have To?

[JvR]

What I want to know is, would people get pissed if I just called a leg shot good and considered it a kill? Is it poor etiquette to refuse to fight from the knees?

1. I think its idiotic. If you could penetrate chain or injure through it enough, the guy isnt gonna be fighting.
2. I can walk, run, bike etc, but getting up off my knee is painful. I screwed it up on a bad parachute jump long ago in the Army.
3. My harness does not really allow for it. Knee length tassets.

Thanks for any help.

JvR

[Broadway]

Bottom line is it doesn't matter one wit if people don't like it.

Fuck them.

You don't like fighting from your knees... its painfull?

Don't do it.

Have fun doing everything else.

[Benedek]

Bottom line is it doesn't matter one wit if people don't like it.

Fuck them.

You don't like fighting from your knees... its painfull?

Don't do it.

Have fun doing everything else.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I have had some serious knee issues over the last few years. Just recently got back into armour and on the field, all I do is explain to my opponents what is going on. Usually they understand and let it go. If I come across someone who has a problem with it I'll tell to go screw themselves, and keep doing my thing.

[Count Johnathan]

I don't of anyone that would have issue with it. I wouldn't.

[Gest]

Is it poor etiquette to refuse to fight from the knees?

No. You can call a a blow to your leg a "kill" if you wish. You, and you alone, may call what is a kill to your body when you are on the field. That is both the honor, and the hazard, we all assume when we take the field. I would just offer out that would be a good time to compliment your worthy opponent for a blow well struck.

Dante della Luna spoke the truth in his own matchless, gentle way.

-- Gest

[Louis de Leon]

First thing I think when someone takes a leg as a kill is "probably has knee problems". It's no biggie - not offensive or poor manners at all.

[Edwin]

At a demo a few months ago, I decided to not fight from my knees. When struck on one leg, I tucked my foot behind my butt, and hopped on the remaining leg. It worked ok, and the kids liked it. I have thought about doing that in normal fighting, but haven't yet.

[knitebee]

There are a couple of fighter in my area that take leg shots as kills. I've never seen nor heard of anyone having any issues with it at all.

[AvM]

Bottom line is it doesn't matter one wit if people don't like it.

Fuck them.

You don't like fighting from your knees... its painfull?

Don't do it.

Have fun doing everything else.

+1

I take leg shots as kills occasionally, it's no big deal. You'll have to defend differently (i.e. guard your leg better), but that ain't a bad thing.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

At a demo a few months ago, I decided to not fight from my knees. When struck on one leg, I tucked my foot behind my butt, and hopped on the remaining leg. It worked ok, and the kids liked it. I have thought about doing that in normal fighting, but haven't yet.

So does this guy.

[AriAnson]

I counted how many folks got legged during a tourney once. There were 45 fights while I counted and 19 of them ended with someone fighting from their knees. I just don't imagine that the same percentage applied historically.

[raito]

I guess I see the reasoning a little differently, but I take the SCA rules a bit literally. From my point of view, you can't really take a leg shot as a kill, but it's not a problem. Anyone can yield the fight at any time for pretty much any reason, and no one gets to say boo about it.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Honestly, I've never had someone give me grief (or even heard of a problem) for switching a bout to 3 counted blows, taking a leg as a kill, or anything like that, as long as it didn't mess up the tourney.

If the MiC is OK with it, and the opponent is OK with it, no big deal. Just check with the MiC before the tourney starts.


.

[J.G.Elmslie]

I counted how many folks got legged during a tourney once. There were 45 fights while I counted and 19 of them ended with someone fighting from their knees. I just don't imagine that the same percentage applied historically.

one of the reasons that I dont do SCA fighting - the whole "on knees" is, in my book, all rather absurd from a realistic point of view...

and on reading the title of the thread, I was thinking "hrm, kneeing the opponent in the 'nads? that's a bit harsh. Nice." I suspect I have slightly different criteria than most people as to what's considered acceptable.


Edit:
since this comment sparked a bit of conflict, a clarification.
I am solely referring to Ari Anson's comment of the same percentages applying historically, and that this is rather absurd from a realistic point of view. I would also state that I dont do SCA and therefore, I have no say on the original poster's commentary on appropriate ettiquette for calling such shots.

[Aaron]

I don't fight from my knees.

Most fighters ask me to switch to three counted blows, with glee (if allowed by the tournament).

Some just fight normally without comment and I take the leg blow as a kill. No problems.

Only three have complained, but it was because they didn't want to encourage "fringe fighters" in two cases and "so you think you are better than the rest of us" from the other.

If I'm in a war or melee or somewhere where I can't mention it or my preference for fighting standing up is unknown, I just drop my guard "to defend my leg" after they throw the shot, leaving my head and upper torso wide open. They throw the "final shot" a split second after the leg shot, and we both leave happy.

-Aaron

[Diglach Mac Cein]

So, this thread doesn't apply to you then...

one of the reasons that I dont do SCA fighting - the whole "on knees" is, in my book, all rather absurd from a realistic point of view...

and on reading the title of the thread, I was thinking "hrm, kneeing the opponent in the 'nads? that's a bit harsh. Nice." I suspect I have slightly different criteria than most people as to what's considered acceptable.

[J.G.Elmslie]

So, this thread doesn't apply to you then...

one of the reasons that I dont do SCA fighting - the whole "on knees" is, in my book, all rather absurd from a realistic point of view...

my apologies, I appear to have hit a raw nerve.

my point, irrespective of my participation, was in reference to AriAnson's comment that the percentage did not apply historically. I was agreeing with his assesment. I then happened to comment that it is a detail of the society which stands out to me as a notable area of discrepancy, and is personally off-putting.

If the casual discussion of the relevance of historical likelihood of an occurance causes you to be offended enough to state that a "thread doesn't apply to you", may I politely ask if I were to discuss use of polearm, and the practical approaches of safe implementation of pole-hammer in armoured and unarmoured practice for reenactment (A subject I'm likely to raise sometime, as I'm eyeing up making a set of pole-hammers based directly off Wallace Collection #A926 with a head in silicone urethane instead of steel for practice), for example, would you not bother to look, read, and give your opinions because it's not SCA-specific?

As I have said in previous posts, I do not, in any way consider what I do "better" or anything of the sort. SCA is simply a different take on an interest in history, and one which carries no less - and no greater worth. I apologise if my comment that some details, such as fighting while on the knees was taken as an attack on the sport; it was not. It was a personal reflection on my view thereof, whilst I also commented on the historic incidence of fighting on whilst grounded.

I had, perhaps naively, hoped that it could result not in "you dont belong in here then" responses, but alongside the ettiquette of the society, a little debate on the history of battlefield leg injury, where we could discuss the known effects of penetrating strikes to the legs, as was originally raised in JvR's first point:

1. I think its idiotic. If you could penetrate chain or injure through it enough, the guy isnt gonna be fighting.

Again, my apologies for seemingly having worded my original point of opinion in such a way it appears to have caused you such offense.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Knee fighting is stupid. I'm too old, and my dignity does not allow me to crawl around on the floor. A wound that would take away use of my leg would take me out of a fight anyway. I dont do it.

[mordreth]

I counted how many folks got legged during a tourney once. There were 45 fights while I counted and 19 of them ended with someone fighting from their knees. I just don't imagine that the same percentage applied historically.

I think the Visby mass grave had a lot of leg injuries among the dear departed.

[J.G.Elmslie]

I counted how many folks got legged during a tourney once. There were 45 fights while I counted and 19 of them ended with someone fighting from their knees. I just don't imagine that the same percentage applied historically.

I think the Visby mass grave had a lot of leg injuries among the dear departed.

which is rather the point. (or edge).
it tends to indicate that, given they were the dead, once a leg injury was made, these people were incapacitated to a greater or lesser extent, and therefore killed.

what I'd like to see is if there's a correlation of leg injuries to additional injury placement - specifically, no injury, upper forehead/shoulder, forearm, or back and back of head.

no injury is pretty simple - the leg wound was what killed them.
if secondary injuries are to be found in forearm, that tends to indicate that a victim had raised arms to protect themselves before death. if it's in the back or back of the head, then it's likely indication of a combatant who was downed - a similar injury patten has been found in graves from the hundred years' war, in what is suspected to be the soldiers cut down during a rout. upper forearm or shoulder would indicate someone on knees, facing the opponent, being cut down into.

[Amanda M]

I think it would depend a lot on the nature of the wound and the location as to whether the leg wound would kill by itself. But surely a terrible wound could make it more difficult for the person to defend themselves and they might then be struck again by their opponent.

But even had the person survived I think they would be in just as much danger from death by infection too.

[J.G.Elmslie]

I think it would depend a lot on the nature of the wound and the location as to whether the leg wound would kill by itself. But surely a terrible wound could make it more difficult for the person to defend themselves and they might then be struck again by their opponent.

But even had the person survived I think they would be in just as much danger from death by infection too.

the wisby finds, if my meagre research on the period is accurate, were all pretty much mass graves as soon as possible after the seige assault, so they're useful as they conveniently remove fatalities by infections from the equation.

it's as much a case that if you've had your thigh/knee/shin hacked through, (rather than a inner thigh shot opening the femoral artery for a rapid blood loss), are you capable of fighting at all, or merely trying to defend yourself? strangely, not many people likely to voulunteer for tests, I expect.

[DukeAvery]

Greetings,

If fighting from your knees is painful or otherwise offensive, don't do it. Propose instead 3 counted blows etc. If your opponent refuses, then die to a leg blow in good conscience.

Talk with your king or a chiv member you respect before going "off script" at a tournament, for example. Ask around what others are doing in this regard in your area. A revved up opponent hearing "I won't fight from my knees" is apt to react differently if they find out at the pavillion that someone with knee "issues" is requesting 3 counted blows etc. There are nuances here, in that you probably don't want to make much of your knee problems and yet wish to fight tournament or singles.

Perhaps an alternate convention you could eventually propose might be that leg wounded fighters must keep one foot planted or some such (stay in a small circle?) yet remain standing. Thus the fighter is immobilized but still fighting. Say two more leg shots to the same leg is a kill.

How to handle court without taking a knee is another discussion that seems related. Consider talking directly with your queen or a Lady of the Rose you are comfortable talking to and (in a small setting) discuss the matter frankly. I would be surprised if you did not gain a friend to your quest.

Regards,

Avery

[Diglach Mac Cein]

See, I don't think of the leg shot as a debilitating wound. I see it as a penalty, according to our rules.

Didn't period contests have rules that the fight ends when you touch the ground with something other than the soles of the feet? Or pushed out of bounds? Or struck with "x" number of blows? Striking the crest from the helm?

In a real fight would being forced to one knee automatically mean your death? Or being struck 3 times, or forced back 10' back? No. And neither would a blow to a limb necessarly be crippling.

These rules were in place for a reason - to allow warriors to test themselves against one another, to hone their skills, without killing those who would be standing WITH them on the battlefield. So these rules make sense - to apply a penalty but still not make the combat lethal (at least on purpose).


So, the penalty we assign for failing to defend your legs well enough is to fight from your knees. And in the SCA there are options - not well know or often used, but they are there.

In that way, I'm not sure what we do isn't THAT different from period contests.


.

[Hrolfr]

Knee fighting is stupid. I'm too old, and my dignity does not allow me to crawl around on the floor. A wound that would take away use of my leg would take me out of a fight anyway. I dont do it.

+Tasha

Sir Dilan, If I was in Crown (something I doubt will EVER happen), I would take a stout blow to the leg as a kill.

My knees (on some days) allow my to fight from my knees, but I do not do it. I would rather (for my physical health) take them as a kill.

[DukeAvery]

... I do not, in any way consider what I do "better" or anything of the sort. ...

We are of like mind then - well met.

Regards,

Avery

[Eirik]

First and foremost, to the OP and the OT, you may call your blows anyway you like. I am not offended when folks don't want to fight from their knees... or single sword either for that matter!


Suzerain-

Your quite verbose explanation notwithstanding, I believe the fact that you opened with "one of the reasons I don't do SCA fighting" is the issue. No "raw nerves" involved, just a poor opening. Had the question been "why does my computer do <blah>", and you had opened with "one of the reasons I never use computers", any following commentary would automatically be categorized as useless.

And the assumption, for the record, is correct. While you are certainly entitled to an opinion, as a non-participant, for the purpose of this conversation, your opinion is meaningless.

Your point about the nature of injuries during the time period might have some releveance, were the SCA more of a Historical Re-enactment group, as opposed to primarily a learning organization. Never confuse what we do on the field with mortal armoured combat. It isn't. It's a modern sport, with specific rules, intended to loosely mimmic medieval combat, not replicate it.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I think it would depend a lot on the nature of the wound and the location as to whether the leg wound would kill by itself. But surely a terrible wound could make it more difficult for the person to defend themselves and they might then be struck again by their opponent.

But even had the person survived I think they would be in just as much danger from death by infection too.

the wisby finds, if my meagre research on the period is accurate, were all pretty much mass graves as soon as possible after the seige assault, so they're useful as they conveniently remove fatalities by infections from the equation.

it's as much a case that if you've had your thigh/knee/shin hacked through, (rather than a inner thigh shot opening the femoral artery for a rapid blood loss), are you capable of fighting at all, or merely trying to defend yourself? strangely, not many people likely to voulunteer for tests, I expect.

The leg blows were not the fight stoppers (except for one which cut through BOTH legs with one blow-that may be from some other battle, I'm not sure right now). I believe that one skeleton showed multiple wounds to the shin, that had healed, so at least some were from previous injuries.

Yes, people got hit on the leg. That generally did not kill them, if they don't live through the battle because they were hit with fight stoppers, they don't have to worry that much about infection, or surgeons.


There is absolutely no way to replicate (on the list field), with complete accuracy, the injury potential of real weapons on real bodies- except for using real weapons and playing for keeps.

What we are doing is an approximation of medieval combat, with a rule set we generally accept as the best way to get there, with the armor&weapons&speed/power that we find interesting.

If you got cut with a real sword on your shin, and your leg did not fall off, would you calmly accept death, or would you do your damnedest to take the bastard with you?

[J.G.Elmslie]

<snip>

I opened with "one the the reasons I dont" simply to disqualify myself in case any thought I was also commenting on the issue of ettiquette. As a non-member, that is an area in which I not only have no input, but would have no right for input.
however, for the comment, I could as easily have said "the whole on knees" is, in my book, all rather absurd from a realistic point of view" - and missed out the fact that I looked at the thread from that of an outsider to it.

frankly, since I'm not in any mood to mince my words today, if anyone is so defensive of a sport that someone who is'nt a participant in the exact same social circle as themselves, are instantly blanked as "useless", I rather pitty the tiny bubble they inhabit.

Cross-pollination of ideas and learning is what has allowed all awareness of western martial arts, experimental archaeology, and sport combat to grow equally. We all benefit from learning the wisdom of others.

However, since at no point was I making criticism of the SCA in the slightest, I will continue not to criticise it, and instead continue to do exactly what I was: focusing on the area of the discussion of leg injury and its effects for all combat.

We are of like mind then - well met.

Regards,

Avery

Thankyou, my good sir - and likewise, well met indeed.
here's to future dealings that are less beset by divisions.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

And I don't blame you - and frankly, I would be surprised if HRM, The KEM and your opponent would have any problem.

The only other thing I would stress is that in MELEE - take a leg as a leg or a kill. And be consistent, battle for battle, encounted for encounter.

Sir Dilan, If I was in Crown (something I doubt will EVER happen), I would take a stout blow to the leg as a kill.

[Eirik]

Suze Suze Suze...

had the original question been "What are your opinions of knee fighting, as it pertains to period combat?", your comments would have been considered insightful.

Sadly for you, though, it wasn't. It was a question on how we thought other fighters would feel if the OP called legs shots kills.... a question you are patently not qualified to answer, by your own admission.


A similar scenario:

Q:"My car seems to be missing periodically... do you guys think it could be the gaps in my spark plugs?"

Suze replies: That's one of the reasons I've never seen an internal combustion engine. Henry Ford revolutionized manufacturing by implementing the assembly line."

reply: "Suze... that has nothing to do with the question. If you've never seen an engine, you can't possibly help."

Suze's "clever" retort:"Why... your narrow minded persecution of my obvious intelligence is preventing the cross pollination of free flowing information to masses across the universe!"


What a load of Balogna Sandwiches.


Please post back about how superior your ideas are and how narrow minded the rest of us are. While you're at it... answer the original question. How do YOU treat folks who call YOUR leg shots kills in SCA combat?

Yeah. I thought so.


I'm off to fighter practice, where I may or may not call legs kills, depending on my desires, and completely disregarding period combat practices, or the findings in any archeological dig.

[BendSinister]

My answer to your questions are these.

One "Would people get pissed if I just called a leg shot good and considered it a kill?" Yes some will, too bad for them the slain man says he is slain.

Two "Is it poor etiquette to refuse to fight from the knees?" No, it is not in my area. The rules set allows for other (seldom used) options; standing on one foot and sitting.

Four years ago I was unable to use my shield arm for anything but holding up a shield. So I was taking good arm hits as kills. I told no one what I was doing, just fell over dead when it happened. I was asked only once if I had been hit in the arm by my opponent. I answered that I was dead. End of discussion.

My opinion on this whole subject is that you can always uprate a blow from wounding to killing under S.C.A. rules. You can not down rate blows from killing to wounding.

BS

[Hrolfr]

And I don't blame you - and frankly, I would be surprised if HRM, The KEM and your opponent would have any problem.

The only other thing I would stress is that in MELEE - take a leg as a leg or a kill. And be consistent, battle for battle, encounted for encounter.

Sir Dilan, If I was in Crown (something I doubt will EVER happen), I would take a stout blow to the leg as a kill.

I usually fight spear or glaive in melee. Stout leg shots are always taken as kills

[audax]

I pretty much always take leg blows as a loss. As Animal said, my dignitah and my knees can't take crawling around on the ground.

I just tell my opponent the situation and if they propose counted blows, I go for it. I have not yet had anyone complain or say anything negative.

I have been asked to play out the scenario and I carefully took a knee and fought it out as best I could. No big deal for one fight.

[DukeAvery]

I pretty much always take leg blows as a loss. As Animal said, my dignitah and my knees can't take crawling around on the ground.

I just tell my opponent the situation and if they propose counted blows, I go for it. I have not yet had anyone complain or say anything negative.

I have been asked to play out the scenario and I carefully took a knee and fought it out as best I could. No big deal for one fight.

I have to say this is superior to my own earlier offering on this.

Regards,

Avery