A doubt concerning maille and voiders

[Signo]

A doubt just leaped in my mind: During the XV° century, we see for a certain time, italian armours with maille short sleeves under the pauldron but over the arm harness, but how they protected the inside of the elbow and in early times the biceps? Did they use voiders for their arms? If this is the case the armpit would be protected with 2 layers of maille?
If this is how they did it, how do you avoid the maille to lock over eachother binding movements?

[Signo]

Uhm what is the problem? The question is not clear, or nobody knows the answer?

[Sean Powell]

Well I'm not certain of the question and I'm not experienced enough to guess at answers. Do you have specific suits in mind or artwork you can link to for reference?

I THINK that maile in the elbow disappears from use before it does so from armpits and I THINK that is roughly contemporary with elbow wings that wrap all the way to the inside but I would have to look at a number of suits just to see if there is a positive corelation in dates.

Having voiders that cover the armpit and yet pass over the rearbrace does not imply that there can't be maile sewn to the foundation cloting at the elbows... just that it is a seperate piece. A lot of that is going to be dictated by fashion as much as function.

Have you thought to also check for maile in other locations (groin, back of knees, neck) that might give a clue?

Sorry I can't be more help.
Sean

[Cet]

I suspect that the mail was double in some of these spots- i.e sewn to the garment as voiders inside the arm as well as being worn as sleeves overlapping the upper cannon.

In practice mail seems to flow over other mail pretty easily without snagging as long as it is well made so I don't envision that as a likely problem. I would envision voiders sewn to the arming doublets at the elbow and possibly along the upper arm with full separate sleeves being droned separately as well.

[Mac]

Signo,

You have posed an interesting question, and one which I have been worried about for many years.

I think that the typical Italian mail arm defense is a loose fitting sleeve which falls over the plate armor of the upper arm and reaches to about the middle of the elbow. I do not recall ever having seen an example in art which unequivocally shows any mail worn in the bend of the elbow in addition to these sleeves.

It seems like they must have thought that the elbow length sleeve worn over the plate was sufficient protection.

Mac

[Otto von Teich]

Thanks Mac, a good answer to a good question! I was thinking along those lines but wasnt sure, as I havnt studied enough period artwork to be certain.

[chef de chambre]

Signo,

You have posed an interesting question, and one which I have been worried about for many years.

I think that the typical Italian mail arm defense is a loose fitting sleeve which falls over the plate armor of the upper arm and reaches to about the middle of the elbow. I do not recall ever having seen an example in art which unequivocally shows any mail worn in the bend of the elbow in addition to these sleeves.

It seems like they must have thought that the elbow length sleeve worn over the plate was sufficient protection.

Mac

Remember that Italian 15th century Image of the wounded knight with his cuirasse taken off, being removed from the saddle? Posted over on the Arms and Armour Forum? I would bet that solution - the two sleeves, joined in a sort of mini-halter-top, was pretty commonplace in Italy. It makes a heck of a lot of sense. No visible voider at the elbow.

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . droned separately . . .

Donned separately?

[DukeAvery]

I read somewhere (can't recall atm) of a "bishop's mantle" (maille) that had extensions that wrapped around the upper arm. Is this related to what Chef describes?

As an aside, I'm interested in reading more about these bishop's mantles (especially working patterns as well regarded books on the subject) - can anyone point the way?

Thanks,

Avery

[Josh W]

It seems readily apparent that, while both of these men armed in mid-15th century Italian armour wear mail sleeves over their rerebraces, neither seems to be wearing mail voiders in the bend of the elbow.

[Signo]

Thank you for you reply!

So, this kind of voiders
http://www.battlemerchant.com/popup_ima ... 81&imgID=0
should be employed with floating arm harness of the kind that was fashionable in germany, and not with milanese white harness (early XV°),
For which a large sleeve like Mac describe should suffice, like a common haubergeon while more and more uncommon should be ok for the beginning of XV° century.

[chef de chambre]

Thank you for you reply!

So, this kind of voiders
http://www.battlemerchant.com/popup_ima ... 81&imgID=0
should be employed with floating arm harness of the kind that was fashionable in germany, and not with milanese white harness (early XV°),
For which a large sleeve like Mac describe should suffice, like a common haubergeon while more and more uncommon should be ok for the beginning of XV° century.

I would say yes.

But not seperate individual sleeves, the best rig I saw was in that Italian image I described, which the fellow was wearing what would be similar to a haubergorn, if you trimmed off everything below the armpit. I;ve tried seperate mail sleeves with pauldrons, and I didn;t find them to work well, they wanted to droop.

Were I going for Italian style voiders, it would be the short sleeved halter-top for me. When I saw that image, it was as if it were a revalation from on High.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

The St Louis Art Museum has a suit of Maximillian plate (c1510-1525)with mail wired(spiral wound through the holes) to the edges of the upper and lower arms. I'm not sure that is original, but the Italians certainly liked mail between the bottom of the greaves and the toecap on their shoes.

[img]http://stlouis.art.museum/emuseum/media ... 711926.jpg[/img]

They also have a nice mantle (1st half 16thC)

[img]http://stlouis.art.museum/emuseum/media ... _1_NEW.jpg[/img]

[Mac]

Here is the picture that Bob is talking about.


This guy is wearing sleeves and a skirt, but not an entire haubergeon. This reduces bulk, weight and redundancy.

Mac

[chef de chambre]

But if he wore the haubergorn, he might still have the kidney!

[Signo]

But we would have lost an occasion to understand better

[MJBlazek]

It seems readily apparent that, while both of these men armed in mid-15th century Italian armour wear mail sleeves over their rerebraces, neither seems to be wearing mail voiders in the bend of the elbow.

I love this picture.. have since the first time I saw it.... I am so going to model my kit after it....I'm already 40% there..

[Carnifex-]

With the voider/top as shown for the wounded knight, wouldn´t he have worn a complete set of breast AND back plate with fauld?

[Otto von Teich]

Yes indeed Carnifex.

[chef de chambre]

In the uncropped original image, you can see his cuirasse (with faulds), and the armet he was wearing.

A 'fauld' of mail, worn underneath whatever armour overall, was 'de rigure' in the 15th century. They were worn under jacks, brigandines, and full suits of plate. The only other near-universal piece of mail, regardless of type of harness being worn, would be the standard of mail

[Aussie Yeoman]

Chef de Chambre,

what is the name or this painting and the artist? Perhaps more importantly, where can one see the uncropped image?

Dave

[Qwertypolk]

Many Italian harnesses seem to have stop ribs and rolls incorporated into the vambrace. If we then take into account that Milanese armours generally favoured the mounted knight, would covering the back of the elbow be important?
With stopribs, rolls and detachable extra large couters to prevent lance penetration, and as swords are of little threat to the elbows of the mounted knight, (at least in my opinion) why would maille need to be there?

Chef de Chambre,

what is the name or this painting and the artist? Perhaps more importantly, where can one see the uncropped image?

Dave

Seconded. I'd love to see the uncropped version!

[Milos N.]

Qwertypolk,

With stopribs, rolls and detachable extra large couters to prevent lance penetration, and as swords are of little threat to the elbows of the mounted knight, (at least in my opinion) why would maille need to be there?

Bolts and arrows. 1:100 chance of getting an arrow or bolt shot at an unarmoured spot is something worth carrying another ~10lbs of steel and spending a significant amount of cash on some extra protection. Also, such additional armour, increases the safety factor, which means alot in the event that primary armour does fail for whatever reason. Mind you, that stop ribs will not stop all glancing lance points, sword and dagger thrusts, arrows and bolts.