Ladies purses

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Adeliz
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Ladies purses

Post by Adeliz »

Greetings all :)

I'm looking at making a new purse for myself but I'm wondering at what kind would be best, and possible size/construction methods.

I'm currently wearing a leather kidney pouch, but as I understand it, this is more of a men's thing than a woman's. I was thinking about a brocade frame purse, but I have a couple of questions.

How big were they? For the trapezoidal shaped ones, is the ring at the top just internal structure for shape or the opening for your hand to go through? How exactly do these open/close? Would a harp-shape frame work for mid- or late- 14th C?

So far all of my reference photos have come off of Karen's site (http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm) under the Ring-Framed Purses section (and the Trapezoidal alms purse sub-section).
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Post by Cian of Storvik »

I've been pondering how to obtain one for my S.O. for a long time.
I like a few of the illustrations and examples on Karen's site, but it's really difficult to make out much details about how they are constructed.

I also really like the squre bottom tassle pouch made by Historic Enterprises. But I wanted a brocade rather then a plain fabric. (eventually, if she likes going to events with me I may embroider her one).

But I also like the frame purses, and decided I would initially make one based on the one for sale at Medeivaldesign.com called a "cloth pouch". I just need to get off of my duff and hit the fabric store for scrap bin to find a suitable fabric.

I made a paper pattern and plan on making the flap a hidden-pouch like on Men's kideny pouch front flaps. And perhaps a tricky to access rear-pocket in back. And making some auxiliary 3-panel draw string pouches to hang off the belt as well (she's a big fan of pockets).

The hardware will be stainless steel (I don't want her having to polish it all up) as it will attach to the hardware.
-Cian

(I just want to explain why I keep saying "I like". Whenever I show my girlfriend pics of medieval stuff she rolls her eyes and says "um yeah...whatever". The only time she's expressed a like for something, she pointed to an online pic and said "oooh! I like this!!!" and it was a costume company version of a "pirate wench" (whatever the hell that is). So the long story short is that she's completely lost a vote on any garb or accessories I give her to dress up in.)
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Re: Ladies purses

Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Adeliz wrote:How big were they?

Do you have <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9089320148?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=9089320148">Purses in Pieces</a>? IIRC, that was pretty good about giving the exact size of each of the artifacts under discussion. (I have a 15th century purse-bar from a London find, complete with the working swivelly bit that suspended it from a belt; IIRC, the bar itself is no more than about 3" from end to end.)

Adeliz wrote:For the trapezoidal shaped ones, is the ring at the top just internal structure for shape or the opening for your hand to go through? How exactly do these open/close?

Oo, there's a really good example, lemme see if I can dig it up ... aha! Found 'em -- there's two different ones I can show you that really give you a good idea of how the ring works, and how they open & close:
http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40752
http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40767
On both of the links above, click on the link that says "more images of this object" -- pretty nifty, huh? :)

Adeliz wrote:Would a harp-shape frame work for mid- or late- 14th C?

It's a little early, I think; they tend to start showing up around the mid-15th century, from what I've been able to tell. For a 14th century woman, I'd look at a square-based pouch.
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Re: Ladies purses

Post by Tailoress »

Adeliz wrote:For the trapezoidal shaped ones, is the ring at the top just internal structure for shape or the opening for your hand to go through? How exactly do these open/close?


Here's a diagram I did after recreating one of those cool styles of purses (vastly under-represented in the SCA, IMO) a few years back:

Image

Here are some photos (which may need contrast/brightness adjustment to see details):

Image

Image

You can purchase the brass rings at most craft stores. You want the 4" size.

-Tasha
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Post by Adeliz »

Tasha FTW!

+Tasha!



And Karen, yes I do have Purses in Pieces, and was going to look last night... but Ugo was in town so I had to go be a fan-girl. :D LOL The links are great, I hadn't seen the "View More" before... but I am kinda bad at paying attention to things like that. :)

Valerius also has a couple of frame-purse pieces from finds (I think in the Baltics), but they are all a little late then (I think mostly harp-shaped) for what I was looking for.
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Post by Cian of Storvik »

I'm not trying to hijack the thread so excuse my inteference but I have a couple of questions about this purse from medieval design (see pics below).

Q1: Is the swivel loop at the top intended to have the belt slip directly through it? (seems like an odd shape to be hanging on a belt)

Q2: Is the hinged wire here supposed to define the mouth or is it part of the flap? (it appears to have the same shape as the flap, but I think it would lend more necessary support to the mouth of the pouch.

Q3: Is this what is termed a "hinge-ring purse"? (I don't own purses in pieces).
-Cian
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Post by Baron Conal »

yea Tasha!

Gotta show this to my wife....
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

I've never seen a depiction of a woman wearing anything but a simple drawstring pouch, and that -under- her overgown.

These are from Testard which is late 15th C, but I've seen the same sort of arrangement in Boccaccio, which is the other end of the century-

Image Image

I've never seen a depiction of a woman wearing a frame purse. I've not seen a lot of men wearing them either, maybe like 30% of the men in images from the 15th C.

Actually, I just scanned a random dozen 15th. C paintings from a number of sources and only found 3 pouches. The kidney pouch appears much more frequently in the 14th C., like 60-70% of the time.

I have a whole sheet of reference pics for women's pouches next to my desk, I'll have to see if I can scan it or something.

Gwen
Last edited by Black Swan Designs on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Amanda M »

I also don't quite get how those purse hangers work either so I'm interested in that too.
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

Look at Tasha's drawing, and consider that she's using a round ring as a frame, instead of a D shaped one.

The flap is soft. It is sewn to the frame along the top. (Tasha's pattern is round on the top because she's using a ring. If this were a pattern for a D shaped frame, the pattern would be flat on the top and round on the bottom, to match the shape of the ring)

The front of the pouch has a bite taken out of it where the frame goes. The bite is sewn to the U shaped part of the frame. (Tasha's pattern only goes halfway up the ring. If this were a pattern for a D shaped frame, the shoulders on either side of the bite would touch the bar)

The back goes behind the frame. It is sewn to the front along the sides, and to the frame along to top of the back. (Tasha's pattern is round on top because she's using a ring. If this were a pattern for a D shaped frame, the hump on top would be cut off.)
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Post by Tailoress »

Eons ago Karen scared up some b+w pictures of one of these styles of purses (round-top trapezoid) that showed the inner ring and the drawstring "sphincter" of cloth in it, under the flap... Those pics are on another computer that's not on the web right now, but maybe Karen still has them somewhere? Looking at her pouches page, I don't see the images there. I used them to design the diagram and purse above. It was a commission for a man; I only have one image of a woman in possession of such a purse, and she's holding it, not wearing, which makes it dubious as her own possession. There's a precedence in the art of the time for women holding purses, symbolizing the receipt of money from a man. It's in the Romance of Alexander. Also in that same MS is an image of a man wearing one of these styles.

Then there's the gorgeous one that belonged to "the Countess of Bar", which the Cluny has only this to say -- "It is said to have belonged to a Countess of Bar, benefactor of the Saint-Mihiel Abbey." So... I'm not sure what to think re: whether or not women wore this style of purse.
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

Here are a couple more:

Image

Image
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Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Tasha McG wrote:Eons ago Karen scared up some b+w pictures of one of these styles of purses (round-top trapezoid) that showed the inner ring and the drawstring "sphincter" of cloth in it, under the flap... Those pics are on another computer that's not on the web right now, but maybe Karen still has them somewhere?

Yep, those were the aforementioned "go to http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40752 and http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40767 and click on 'more images of this object'" :)

Black Swan Designs wrote:I've never seen a depiction of a woman wearing anything but a simple drawstring pouch, and that -under- her overgown.

If you go to http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm and open the source code, you'll see some notes where this trend turns up. It's an interesting 15th trend, and in many cases, the drawstring purse is red.

Here's a few examples (some of which are already in the images you've provided above):
http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/grand/f072.htm
http://www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landesku ... uern01.htm
http://www2.kb.nl/kb/manuscripts/thumbs ... V_MINM.JPG
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... =1&Param=C
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... =1&Param=C
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... 85&Param=C
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... 47&Param=C
http://www.larchetipo.com/2001/feb01/immagine.htm

But I have certainly seen many pictures of women wearing purses over their undergowns (though in several cases, these women are brides) ...
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... osnero.jpg :arrow: http://www.ctv.es/USERS/sagastibelza/be ... _tumba.htm
http://home.adelphi.edu/sbloch/ma/tents ... nd.hut.jpg
http://racer.kb.nl/pregvn/MIMI/MIMI_MMW ... _MIN_2.JPG
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... 38&Param=C
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... =1&Param=C
http://www.tudoreffigies.co.uk/browse/f ... asp?id=135 :arrow: http://www.tudoreffigies.co.uk/browse/view.asp?id=95

And I've also seen pictures of women wearing purses other than simple drawstring pouches (and over their undergowns) ...
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 002600.JPG :arrow: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 002889.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 005537.JPG :arrow: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 005536.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016753.JPG :arrow: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016752.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 005504.JPG :arrow: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 005484.JPG
http://www.tudoreffigies.co.uk/browse/f ... asp?id=265 :arrow: http://www.tudoreffigies.co.uk/browse/view.asp?id=121
http://images.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/I/big/2550013a.jpg
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/kurzweil/juni2.htm
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... tm15vd.gif
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

Hi Karen-

Interesting!

Refering to the last set of images:

#2 and #4 are 'Visitation' scenes, and the purse wearer is St. Elizabeth. The scene takes place shortly after the Annunciation, when Mary visits her cousin Elisabeth, who despite her advanced age has miraculously become pregnant with the future John the Baptist. St. Elizabeth is often depicted carrying a purse where Mary is not, so I have to wonder if this is a representation of current style, or a reference to Elizabeth's miraculous pregnancy. Or perhaps it refers to Elizabeth's advanced age, i.e. perhaps only matrons carried purses. Dunno, but it piques my interest. I'm going to have a poke through Ferguson's 'Signs and Symbols in Christian Art' to see if he has anything to say on the subject.

#1) This image is interesting because it looks very regional to me, maybe Sienese or Iberian:
Image
The structure of the painting makes me think it's a saint. If so, the purse may also by symbolic and not necessarily representitive of current style. Do you know any more about this image?

#3) This one looks very German or Northern Flemish:
Image
The only woman wearing a purse looks like she could be the housekeeper or something, as she's serving the food, and she's wearing a headdress usually reserved for older/married woman, and she has a big honking wad of keys next to the purse. Clearly, she's the one 'holding the keys' in this household! So here, like with the St. Elizabeth, I wonder if wearing a purse is a clue to her status in the household, her married status, her age, or all 3.

The next 3 are early 16th C., so they are technically OOP for this discussion (cool purses though, eh?)

The woman in the Mac bible is a pilgrim, so she is wearing a pilgrim's satchel, same as the other pilgrims. I don't think that can be considered a 'purse' in the same sense as the others.

#3 is the only one I'd say supports the idea of a larger, shaped purse for women in the 15th C. (albeit late in the century, and for a woman of a particular station), but given what I'm seeing in the evidence presented, I'd say it represents a trend for older/married/housekeeper women to carry larger purses on the outside of their clothing, at least inside the house. Also given the information presented, it looks like by the first third of the 16th C. it became more common to see these purses worn by a broader group of women.

The early 16th C. images bring up other questions in my mind, such as whether Lady Dawtry's purse is an allusion to her philanthropic or charitable work (a very common symbol in 15th C. donor paintings) more than a reference to current fashion. The other 2 images make me wonder if the exterior belt pouch was a regional or class affectation, as the costume worn by the lovely German frau appears to be rather solidly of the merchant class, and the field worker in the other image is clearly of a lower station than the fashionably attired woman in the lower left of the painting.

It's all very interesting to consider! :)

Gwen
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Post by Cian of Storvik »

It still needs a bit of finishing work (holes drilled in the back supports and a good sand and polish), but this is the frame for the ladie's purse. It's made primarily out of stock I got at the local hobby shop and bits and pieces around here. Primarily stainless

Some 1/16" wire, 19 ga wire, 1/8" rod, 1/4" tube and 18 ga sheet.

The fabric it is sitting on is what I'm going to make the prototype pouch from (outer shell). It's not black and white. Either my camera is in it's final death throws or the direct sunlight I was standing in washed it out (the flash on my camera is trashed).

-Cian

Image
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

Well there you have it! Good job! 8)

Gwen
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Post by Tailoress »

Karen Larsdatter wrote:
Yep, those were the aforementioned "go to http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40752 and http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=40767 and click on 'more images of this object'" :)


D'oh, now I see it. Sorry I missed that and thanks for the pointer. Good Lord, I'm tired. Been packing and painting and haven't had much rest since Pennsic, so I think I'm reading less clearly these days. Hopefully it will improve. :)
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Post by Amanda M »

That's cool Cian. :) I hope you post a sort of WIP thread about the whole process.
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Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Black Swan Designs wrote:#1) This image is interesting because it looks very regional to me, maybe Sienese or Iberian:
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 002889.JPG
The structure of the painting makes me think it's a saint. If so, the purse may also by symbolic and not necessarily representitive of current style. Do you know any more about this image?

Yep! You know how there are little cues to each saint that tell you which one they are? You're looking for the ointment-pot in this one -- it makes her the Magdalene. :) She's c. 1490-1500, and Austrian. Here's the details from IMAREAL:
Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar ; Salzburg
Dokumentation: 1490 ; 1500 ; St. Michael im Lungau ; Österreich ; Salzburg ; Filialkirche St. Martin
Anmerkungen: 116,8x32,8 ; St. Michael

Black Swan Designs wrote:#3) This one looks very German or Northern Flemish:
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016752.JPG
The only woman wearing a purse looks like she could be the housekeeper or something, as she's serving the food, and she's wearing a headdress usually reserved for older/married woman, and she has a big honking wad of keys next to the purse. Clearly, she's the one 'holding the keys' in this household! So here, like with the St. Elizabeth, I wonder if wearing a purse is a clue to her status in the household, her married status, her age, or all 3.

It's "The Birth of Mary" by Hans Holbein the Elder, 1493 -- so the German angle is correct there. :)

Black Swan Designs wrote:The woman in the Mac bible is a pilgrim, so she is wearing a pilgrim's satchel, same as the other pilgrims. I don't think that can be considered a 'purse' in the same sense as the others.

No, not really a purse, but an interesting bag option, anyway. (But she's not a pilgrim; she's the Levite's wife -- IIRC the one in Judges 19? -- a traveler, but not really a pilgrim.)

Black Swan Designs wrote:It's all very interesting to consider! :)

Indeed! :D After reading <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0810915448?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0810915448">The Medieval Art of Love</a>, I was half-convinced that the "red purse under gown & over kirtle" series of images was intended to be ... well, Freudian, if you catch my meaning ... :shock: (IIRC, he doesn't write about that particular artistic trend, but he does bring that up about other purse-related images.)

St. Elizabeth often carries odd sorts of purses, though, and I'm not sure what the artists mean to tell us by that. Here's some more examples of St. Elizabeth's pouches:
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 006325.JPG
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/master/ms/1visita.jpg
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

She's c. 1490-1500, and Austrian.
REALLY???? I find that hard to believe. Is it possible the citation is off? I mean, I know Holbein was a wunderkind, (like Durer, have to wonder if it wasn't something in the Austrian water) but this is so crude compared to what else was coming out of the region at the end of the 15th C. That flat, pasty grey complexion is so typical of early Siennese art. Maybe even Italian art in general, as Leonardo's people also have that flat, alabaster look to them, unlike the warm and florid Germans.

(But she's not a pilgrim; she's the Levite's wife -- IIRC the one in Judges 19? -- a traveler, but not really a pilgrim.)
She has a pilgrim's staff as well as the pilgrim bag, so I'd take that to mean she's being depicted as a pilgrim whether or not that correlates to the story correctly.

Here's some more examples of St. Elizabeth's pouches:
Hmm, and another wad of keys. I'm becoming more convinced the whole 'bag and keys' thing is an artistic clue. Are those details from German works? If so, I'd bet the pouch and keys have significance in German art, even if the symbolism isn't cross-cultural. There isn't enough of the first one for me to get a feel for it, but the second one is based on Franco Flemish art, even if it's a copy done elsewhere or done later- look at those Flemish style baggy sleeves!

G
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Post by Adeliz »

Awesome discussion folks, thanks!

But just to make sure, then, that I'm not headed in the wrong direction... what WOULD have been appropriate for a mid- to late- 14th C lady to wear? (Technically my persona is French, but I'll take info from other places too).
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

What status are you trying to portray, and what age group? Those things come into consideration, if you're looking for a historically based answer.

G
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Post by Adeliz »

Black Swan Designs wrote:What status are you trying to portray, and what age group? Those things come into consideration, if you're looking for a historically based answer.


Young-ish. Upper-middle class. Haven't decided married or not though. My persona isn't worked through very well yet, I mostly just wear what works and try to keep it as much in the same TIME as I can, if not the correct social-economic status.
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Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Adeliz wrote:Young-ish. Upper-middle class. Haven't decided married or not though. My persona isn't worked through very well yet, I mostly just wear what works and try to keep it as much in the same TIME as I can, if not the correct social-economic status.

I'd still go with a drawstring purse in the "square-based" style -- for the socio-economic class, I'd ideally go with a good silk (especially if you can find just enough of a reproduction of a lampas, damask, etc. for such a project), though a fine leather would be equally suitable; and check out the period examples for ideas in terms of applying tassels, beads, etc. -- IIRC, a few such purses are discussed in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1843833514?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1843833514">Dress Accessories</a>.
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

I'd vote for something like this-

Image

Get yourself some embroidery silk and go crazy with the tassels. Fingerloop braid the drawstrings while you're at it, and card weave the edges if you know how. 8)

G
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Post by Tailoress »

Adeliz, I've been wearing a simple wool (rectangular) drawstring purse made by Tracey Justus (Mistress Clare de Crecy) for years and years now -- she tabletwove the edging as described from the Museum of London extant example and used the warp ends of the weaving to make little tassels at the end on both sides. The drawstrings are fingerlooped, I think... or braided? Been a while since I looked closely. It's wool, small, and has been my preferred SCA purse forever.

Even if you don't want to go all out and do the tabletweaving element, a simple, small rectangular purse with drawstrings and a couple of tassels will be respectable. For added convenience, add a separate purse string to hang it from. Also, get a little hanger from a reputable merchant of Little Metal Stuff to attach to your belt. Then you can attach it using the larks head knot (It's just a loop knot, like you'd use to hang your Pennsic medallion off a belt.). If you've never made a tassel, there are a bunch of YouTube instructional videos out there, and websites, and books. I learned it from looking at illustrations in a craft book.

Have fun!
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Cian of Storvik
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Post by Cian of Storvik »

I finished the prototype hinge ring purse for my lady. I used a faux silk aqua/brown brocade (it was slim pickings for brocades at JoAnn's).

The tassles made from floss, match the aqua in the fabric to a T. I sort of botched the liner, but without much in the way of reference material except the few photos I've seen on the internet, I think it came out okay.

I added a badge (mine) to the front as a spangle, so she doesn't forget where she got it from.
And there you have it.

-Cian
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Post by Tracy Justus »

There are some lovely pouches and purses on this site, both repros and originals. I've been inspired to take up my embroidery needle again and finish some old projects.

Tracy
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Adeliz
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Post by Adeliz »

Also, Valerius owns at least one full, and several partial, extant purse frames. I can take pictures if anyone cares (although there seem to be quite a few out there already).
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Tailoress
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Post by Tailoress »

Tracy Justus wrote:There are some lovely pouches and purses on this site, both repros and originals. I've been inspired to take up my embroidery needle again and finish some old projects.

Tracy


Tristan Zukowski is an amazing man. I have a ton of respect for his artistic efforts. Actually "awe" is a better word for it. Quite inspiring. Almost makes me want to embroider another purse like my first one.... Almost. :lol:
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Post by Steve S. »

Hey Tasha,

I would have left the scabbard of of your knight on your purse.

It looks like he had the shite scared out of him from the dragon! :)

Just kidding it looks great.

Steve
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Post by Black Swan Designs »

Nice job Cian, the purse looks great! :thumbs up emoticon:

Is anyone selling purse frames of that style? I think I'd like to make one myself.

Karen- I am a duck, I am a duck, I am a duck.....:lol: :lol: :lol:

Gwen
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Post by Karen Larsdatter »

Black Swan Designs wrote:Is anyone selling purse frames of that style? I think I'd like to make one myself.

The one frame I've got (just the bar & swivel, really) is from a 15th century find. But it's the most historically-accurate one I've seen :wink: so there's that.

Cian's was made to resemble the Medieval Design purse equipment, but doesn't Lionheart have something like it, too? Jazwiec has the style with the short bar and large round frame (think more "opening" than "flap" there -- of course several examples at http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm too) :) Raymond's Quiet Press and White Rose both sell yellow-metal purse bars. (I'm also not seeing it at Bractea but suspect they may have such a thing.)

Black Swan Designs wrote:Karen- I am a duck, I am a duck, I am a duck.....:lol: :lol: :lol:

Goooood, Gwen. Keep being the duck. :D
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Cian of Storvik
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Post by Cian of Storvik »

Black Swan Designs wrote:Nice job Cian, the purse looks great! :thumbs up emoticon:


I see how I could have done it better now. I'm not great with the whole spacial relations, flip it this way and sew this edge, then flip it inside out and sew that edge type of systemology. But it will do for now as her first official piece of garb. I'm working on a belt for her right now, with a long latin motto made of letter mounts.

I need to buy her an H.E. dress, slip and some headcovering as well. Which I might do this weekend if I can sneak some measurements from her (all I know is that she wears a woman's size 10 in modern dresses).

Thanks for the compliments.
-Cian
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When wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality. -Thomas Jefferson
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Post by Tailoress »

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I would have left the scabbard of of your knight on your purse.

It looks like he had the shite scared out of him from the dragon! :)


:lol: Yeah, that scabbard is way too wide. I noticed that right away but was like, "naaahh.. I can live with it." Heh.
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