With all the various discussions about low-cost and starter-type helms, I haven't seen alot of talk about the Zen Warrior/Triplette helms. I know they are very popular for fencing gear, and I am fond of the stainless basket hilt of theirs I own, but a search failed to reveal any significant discussion of their low cost helms.
For example, they have a $138 fixed-grill 12-gauge (good Atlantian grade metal ) stainless steel spun-top starter helm:
They have a $215 fixed-grill 12-gauge stainless steel bascinet ($325 for the helm with a hinged-grill):
They also have a $500 12-gauge stainless steel barbute.
They have had good stock in a big booth at Pennsic for years, and my experience ordering from them (e.g., the basket hilts) has been excellent -- very rapid shipping, product in-stock, etc...
Certainly, it would seem that the $138 12-gauge stainless spun-top and the $215 12-gauge stainless bascinet *seem* reasonably suited for newcomers or those looking for helms in the $100 to $200+ price-range.
They are what they are. I would recommend the bascinet as a get them on the field starter helm. I have seen a number of them last a few years at Duke Logans practice. They don't look too bad. They seem to protect fine. I would never recommend a football style spun top to anyone.
Brian Killian - Atlantia
The more to vengeance he hasteneth;
Knightly as ever his arms he bore,
Staves of lances and shields he shore;
"...an insidious and pervasive evil which had been perpetuated in certain parts of our country through unremitting and ingenious defiance of the Constitution"
Unless they've gotten a lot better, I wouldn't wish their baskets on my worst enemy. I have one that pretty much dented when you breathed on it. I stopped using it very quickly and have steered people away from them ever since. It's supposed to be 14 ga stainless. If it is, it's the lightest 14 ga stainless I've ever seen. I wouldn't know about any of their other gear.
bkillian wrote:Is this a new development? Has the quality dropped?
The bascinet in the pic is different from the two bascinets I own from him so it may be possible he may be getting them from a different supplier.. $200 for a stainless bas isn't bad and mine has served me well for the past five years.
I had a spuntop from them for years. I worked well but when I padded the helm to fit the wrap/grill was just a little short. when the avintail was added it worked fine.
I would sugest using a 4 point chin strap for any helm but inpaticular those with round tops.
The bascinet for 200$ fixed Grill is what I am currently useing for the money its great Helm, although I had to make a few minor alterations to the helm to make it combat ready,
1) I had to ad a Camail/Aventail this is due to the fact the bottom edge of the Helm sits high enough that without the chain attached Rattan had a chance of making it between the helm and the Gorget I wear.
I also had to add the Chain Camail/Aventail to the Helm in order to stop it from ringing like the great bells of St. Petes
2) I also cut back the face opening to closer to the weld of the Bar Grill approx 1/2 - 1/4 Inch on either side this greatly improved the visibility =)
--
Cheers,
Lord Rónán Mór Ó Rioghbhardáin
Squired to his Grace, Duke Martin von Lochner
Household of "The Moose Lodge"
Chan ann leis a’chiad bhuille thuiteas a’chraobh
MDA - Richard J. Sykes Jr
HauoctheWild wrote:Unless they've gotten a lot better, I wouldn't wish their baskets on my worst enemy. I have one that pretty much dented when you breathed on it. I stopped using it very quickly and have steered people away from them ever since. It's supposed to be 14 ga stainless. If it is, it's the lightest 14 ga stainless I've ever seen. I wouldn't know about any of their other gear.
Havoc
I Personally own 2 of their Stainless Basket Guards and find them worth every penny of the 75$ I paid each. And I do not have any issue with them bending out of shape, or anything else.
If you ran into an issue you may have received a defective one or something, I would recommend contacting them and seeing it they can resolve this issue with you, as I have always found them to be approachable and friendly, with great customer service.
--
Cheers,
Lord Rónán Mór Ó Rioghbhardáin
Squired to his Grace, Duke Martin von Lochner
Household of "The Moose Lodge"
Chan ann leis a’chiad bhuille thuiteas a’chraobh
MDA - Richard J. Sykes Jr
Their shape can be a little hit or miss. 2 friends bought bascinets from them about 3 years ago while at pennsic and they fit. I ordered one for a newbie when we got home and it must have come from a second shipment. It is built in 2 halves and dished all the way down. The result was a bar grill that came 2" higher then it should and where the grill met the helm is was wider then it was deep. Oval in the wrong direction.
Tried to work with it but she said it was painful to be hit, built her a V-6 kit from Zweihammer and it's a tank. She loves it.
I had to put some stuff in the Zen helmet I have to keep the ringing down. Even light shots rang like Big Ben. I used some kind of adhesive mat that are used to keep vibrations from car stereos manageable.
Other than the ringing, I have no beef with the hat.
I am sure Ronan will post here soon, but his bascenet is good for the price. He had to cut it back a little for vision, and yes it does ring like a bell. However he added an aventail and it took the ring out completely
Not the best helm in the world, but I think worth the price...
And yes they are made in India from what I understand... India is getting better... slowly but surely. In fact I am sure in less then 10 years, they are going to start making pretty good stuff... and sadly, likely good enough to put a lot of munition grade armorers here out of business.
I recently sold one of Tripp's SS Spun Top helms to one of Ceddie's friends through him. The helm was nice, new, never used, and solid and perfectly legal for SCA combat. It was a freebie I got an event so I figured I'd pass along the savings and sold it for $55, after shipping I made roughly $30 off the transaction.
I use a Tripp gorget still and it is comfy as all hell, well worth the money. My war shield is also from them and it holds up awesome. His armour maybe outsourced but its solid gear and serves well.
wilmot wrote:Hi, It looks to me that they buy other peoples armour and send it to India to have cheap copies made, not the mark of a person with any honor.
Ronald
Nope he asked permission. Don't disparage Walter. He has never been anything but up front with the people whose patterns he copied. Most of them Came from Red Falcon Armory when Triplet was looking to expand. I know because I photo copied the gauntlet and spun basket hilt pattern for him. He worked out a deal with Duke Micheal for his wire hilts. The list goes on. Unless you actually know the real story don't post shit like that. You know better than that.
Brian Killian - Atlantia
The more to vengeance he hasteneth;
Knightly as ever his arms he bore,
Staves of lances and shields he shore;
"Nope he asked permission. Don't disparage Walter. He has never been anything but up front with the people whose patterns he copied. Most of them Came from Red Falcon Armory when Triplet was looking to expand. I know because I photo copied the gauntlet and spun basket hilt pattern for him. He worked out a deal with Duke Micheal for his wire hilts. The list goes on. Unless you actually know the real story don't post shit like that. You know better than that."
I know the real story, he did not ask Icefalcon before using his pieces and did not ask me before using my basinet so I will post "shit like that" because it is true.
I would like to know what he copied of Ice falcons and what Bascinet of yours did he copy? And please don't take this wrong but how is your Bascinet different than everyone else? What feature of your pattern clearly shows that he copied it?Can this be shown with photographs? What armory are you from? I only know your archive handle. I'm looking for information to substantiate your statement. I have known Walter for many years and this seems out of character for him from my dealings with him. If you can show that I am wrong I will retract my statement.
Brian Killian - Atlantia
The more to vengeance he hasteneth;
Knightly as ever his arms he bore,
Staves of lances and shields he shore;
Hi,
I spoke to Andre and he comfirmed what I said, I am sure he has pictures of my basinets from the old days and the patterns and lines are just about the same except his are much more crudely made (which people have shown me one of his and was like "What were you thinking?") and I have seen his copies of Andre's stuff and it is once again just about exact except for the baddly made thing. I know of what I am speaking of and I would have no issue with him if he would create his own stuff to be copied. Who am I? in the SCA I am Duke Ronald Wilmot (KSCA, OL, OP) and I made alot of Andre's basic patterns and most of the basinet style helmets he sold from 1991-2003 when I sold Rough from the Hammer and started building many fewer pieces so I think I know a copy of something I designed when I see one
First off I take full responsibility for derailing the thread.
Ok so you sound credible. I have to ask though, considering how incestuous the armour business is could his stuff be a copy of a copy? If I ask six different armorers to make me a sport bascinet I suspect that other than quality of execution they will look most similar hence I asked what was unique about yours. Do you recall Walter or Phillip buying the helm in question from you? Are you positive enough that he, in fact with malice aforethought took your design and copied it to sell. Sure enough to call his honor into question? I ask because I find it odd that he would seek permission from us for our designs and not you. I ask again and perhaps more specifically what did he copy from Ice that was not commonly available from other sources at the time. I have known Ice for many years and I have no doubt of his integrity. In the same respect I have known Walter for about as long. So you see my dilemma. If I find out that Walter lied to Partha and I, I will never send business his way again and I will instruct my people to do the same.
Brian Killian - Atlantia
The more to vengeance he hasteneth;
Knightly as ever his arms he bore,
Staves of lances and shields he shore;
I know someone that loves Zen Warrior's stuff. I find it really funny because he keeps buying stuff and it doesn't fit anyone (heavy equipment). But he keeps recommending them and buying stuff like "oh...this ones gonna fit. I just know it.."
I'm not an armor snob (seriously), but their bascinets look like stainless eggs with a grill welded on and I don't know who can wear those spun tops. Well, actually we did find one guy they fit, but he's not exactly vitruvian man if you get my drift.
I think if they made something that actually fit a larger percentage of people and looked okay, I would recommend them too. But I haven't been impressed with anything I've seen from them in person or for the $.
I've heard their shield prices are good (I'm too lazy too look it up), but these are the same people recommending Zen Warrior that have to buy a new shield every 2-4 years because the edges get rolled over, so I take it with a grain of salt. (I'm happy with my beefy Ice-falcon T100)
In their defense, they are supposedly a one-stop-shop for rapier stuff though. But I don't think that was the question posed.
-Cian
P.S. I think for the price point, I would go with Ironmonger because I like his shapes better and they are custom fit to your head. (His munitions grade bascinet is $3 less then the spuntop from Zen. And the stainless bascinet with pivoting visor is only $25 more.) But for the price difference you get a better looking and custom fit helm. JMHO is all.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. - Anonymous
When wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality. -Thomas Jefferson
Firstly, apologies for stirring-up any hornets nests. Really just trying to gather more information about armourers out there for newcomers.
Secondly, though I very much prefer not speaking for others, it is my understanding that any deal between Michael and Triplette for the basket-hilt design that may or may not exist would have been conducted ex-post facto after the hilt was on the market and not before-hand through a request for rights and privileges to the design. The Triplette design is not an exactly precise copy, but is an *extremely* close one both aesthetically and functionally -- so you can take from that whatever you choose in regards to their approach to intellectual property, though I do believe that after approaching them, Michael has been able to work-out a situation that was sufficient to mollify his concerns. In regards to their quality, I know quite a few fighters of very significant depth (and strength) who have been happily using them for some time. They are not Michael's, but they are in-stock, reasonably-priced, and have proven themselves quite decent.
Thirdly, I heartily concur about the lines on some of our custom armourer's helms whom we more regularly discuss (e.g., Ironmonger, Hjalmr, Red Falcon, Stonekeep etc...). However, (a) Ironmonger's munition-grade bascinet, for example, is unpolished mild steel as opposed to stainless steel (I know we all know how well newcomers are able to take care of mild steel); (b) Ironmonger's helms, for example, have 14-gauge sides (and I recently brought *two* of our fighters with 14-gauge helm sides down to a Ducal practice where after the first few seconds, both their helms were creased with a statement of "your helm is weak"; (c) Ironmonger's stainless-steel helms, for example, are about twice the price of that of the spun-bowl Triplette; and (d) even the fastest and most reliable of our custom armourers have variable delivery times which are usually on the order of months (though some are faster). In-stock is often a very big deal to a newcomer raring to get started.
However, I understand that it is quite possible that given the nature of such imports, the metal quality of these helms could well vary as could their thickness, and that they might vary widely from the stated 12-gauge standard. I also understand that their welds might likely have similar issues. If they only fit particularly small heads, that is yet another matter entirely (since no sizes or size options are listed on their site, and I have no information regarding the consistency of their patterning and sizing this is hard to determine).
I am a fervent proponent of intellectual property rights and respecting other's work, and I naturally neither want to directly or indirectly support anyone who is intentionally disrespecting the intellectual property of others -- but this gets to be a very difficult realm. For example, I had a discussion this Pennsic with a very well-known and popular armourer who expressed some immediate and current displeasure with another well-known and popular armourer because they believed one of their significant product offerings had just been similarly appropriated. I consider both these folks individuals of the highest order, and so in this matter I chose to play Sergeant Schultz -- and express empathy and understanding. Don't know the specifics of how or why this matter came to be, and I expect these fine folks will be able to work things out amongst themselves.
If patterns are copied off procured products for the purpose of mercantile pursuits, then those who sought to make money by developing those patterns have a right to be upset and negotiate redress from the offender (as I believe may have been done in Duke Michael's case) -- since I believe that there is a clear breach of intellectual property, regardless of the intent of the offender. If the offended party fails to express their dissatisfaction and seek redress, then perhaps one might claim they are, through inaction, providing tacit consent. If, however, they offender is confronted and then continues to fail to do right by those whose intellectual property they have intentionally or inadvertently acquired -- then I believe that is heaping offense upon offense.
I believe that without further information regarding pattern source and the history of contact (or lack thereof) with the armourers in question, there are sufficient questions regarding the intellectual property provenance of their Bascinet and Barbute to fully avoid recommending these items solely on that basis. However, there did not seem to be any intellectual property questions raised concerning their basic $138 stainless starter helm. Given that there might be issues regarding sizing fit and variability, possible metal quality/thickness and weld quality concerns already discussed, were there any other issues regarding this helm?
Hi,
Sorry as well for derailing this thread, this issue has been a sore spot for a number of years. I have seen several of these helmets and they are copies of my pattern down to the face plate opening, the lines, the less than inspired grillwork, but please, if you are looking for well priced starter helmets, go to Red Falcon (Tim's a cranky old ^(*(*(&%^ but makes a great product for someone starting out and is a professional),or Ironmonger (Eric is to this day my best Flea Market find), and when you step up go to Icefalcon (best customer service anywhere) or to Master Cet (Great attention to detail and customer service that rivials IceFalcon), or Windrose (great selection of styles and a professional business with great customer service) and rumor has it that Bedford is going to make more hilts so if you want a Bedford hilt, buy one (or two) from him but make sure I get mine first or I will beat your ass into the ground .
Not that it's worth much. But none of my dealings with Zen warrior have been "good". I have seen some nice things and some really bad things. I've not personally seen anything ordered on-line come out good, but I know several that have had great finds and gear bought in person.
Personaly I say go with someone else. This is from both the heavy combat and fencing side. (I am a cross-over fighter)
My favorite part about dealing with Zen Warrior was that I have lived about an hour and a half from him my whole life. So I could just drive out to the shop and actually lay hands on the gear before I bought it.
bkillian wrote:First off I take full responsibility for derailing the thread.
Ok so you sound credible. I have to ask though, considering how incestuous the armour business is could his stuff be a copy of a copy? If I ask six different armorers to make me a sport bascinet I suspect that other than quality of execution they will look most similar hence I asked what was unique about yours. Do you recall Walter or Phillip buying the helm in question from you? Are you positive enough that he, in fact with malice aforethought took your design and copied it to sell. Sure enough to call his honor into question? I ask because I find it odd that he would seek permission from us for our designs and not you. I ask again and perhaps more specifically what did he copy from Ice that was not commonly available from other sources at the time. I have known Ice for many years and I have no doubt of his integrity. In the same respect I have known Walter for about as long. So you see my dilemma. If I find out that Walter lied to Partha and I, I will never send business his way again and I will instruct my people to do the same.
Hiya Brian,
Unfortunately, Triplette DID buy breastplates and helms from me and had them sent over for copy without permission. When I told him that I would help him with patterns for his line, he told me that he would rather keep my patterns and that I should be flattered. Last I talked with Partha (Red Falcon), he was in the same boat as myself and was not happy about it. I do not know about Duke Michael's dealings with the man.
ndolphin wrote: And yes they are made in India from what I understand... India is getting better... slowly but surely. In fact I am sure in less then 10 years, they are going to start making pretty good stuff... and sadly, likely good enough to put a lot of munition grade armorers here out of business.
-N
From what i have seen,most American armories Have gone out of business... but I really think it has little to do with indian imports.
Most people dont want the quality of product made by someone making $30 a week. That figure may be high, but i have a friend making that wage in mexico right now and Ive been told the sweatshops in india are about equivalent.
In most products Id have to agree that sourcing a job out to someone making pennies on the hour would be a profit making industry changing occurrence, and would help to further the downfall of the US worker, but in something such as armour, where integrity is a part of the game we play, and with the average American buyer now standing up against foreign sweatshop practices and taking more interest in where their products are made and under what conditions, I think ten years is a little too early to figure we will all soon be closed.
I know id like to be making armor up into my 60's if possible.... I really have no desire to retire when I make a breakthrough every so often that gets me all excited about things all over again... BUT then again, if you all start buying crap out of india instead of fromt he US, then most definitely I will lock the doors up and sell my tools off.
I was in thier booth at Pennsic. Guy was pissy with me when i asked him a question. Therefore, they get none of my money.
Sort of like Karl Von Sussen, I guess. That guy is a piece of work.
Damon wrote:In their own little world they are like this huge evil overlord however in the grand scheme of things they are just this sad little hamster going squeek squeek squeek in their own little ball.
Hi,
I spoke to Bedford this morning, he gave permission for this person to copy a very old design of his but then he started having newer designs copied without permission.
Unfortunately, Triplette DID buy breastplates and helms from me and had them sent over for copy without permission. When I told him that I would help him with patterns for his line, he told me that he would rather keep my patterns and that I should be flattered. Last I talked with Partha (Red Falcon), he was in the same boat as myself and was not happy about it. I do not know about Duke Michael's dealings with the man.
I wonder if this happened after I left the company? I remember Philip coming to us to ask for help with patterns and us giving him the patterns for our gauntlets and we showed him how we did our spun baskets. Now granted we were sick of making the damnthings at the time .
I here by publicly withdraw my support for TCA. It has been shown to me by men of honor and worth that I was wrong regarding their business practices.I will no longer recommend them.
Did Tim say what he copied of RFAs? I'm just curious.
Brian Killian - Atlantia
The more to vengeance he hasteneth;
Knightly as ever his arms he bore,
Staves of lances and shields he shore;
Yeah, if I remember right, His Grace Michael let them copy his old non-reinforced baskets, but then they started doing the reinforced. I could be wrong though. This was like 5 or so years back. Cause I bought one off them, cause he wasnt making any at the time.
Finn O'Shannon KSCA
AEthelmearc
"In each of us are Two Wolves. One Good, One Evil. Which one do you feed most?"
I believe that this is in referring to the whoever was running the Zen/Triplette booth at Pennsic this year.
After reading about the pattern-copying, I feel a little sheepish to own a bascinet and a gorget by them. At least the helmet was second-hand and dirt cheap.
) stainless steel spun-top starter helm:
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