The "light-fight-flight" suit

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:48 pm

obvious ways to shave weight (with no regard to other considerations):

Dump leather or use lighter leather from limb armor, or go to plastic (you can cover this with something very light like cloth or suede).

Dump gambeson, you don't need it if you have body armor.

Dump camelbak, you don't need it (even for wars)

Go to aluminum gauntlets.

That would probably shave 10 lbs and not appreciatively be less protective or more visually offensive.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:56 pm

I think I'm keeping the gambeson. With some test shots to the arm, I think the padding to the forearm is good.

But I would consider dropping the cambelbak, maybe.

-Aaron

zachos · Post by **zachos** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:22 pm

Aaron wrote:
The best example I can think of the video from Tournement of the Phoenix in California last year. The polaxe fight was beautiful. Their armor is as properly fitted as is possible in todays age. The steel is as strong as can be tempered and as light as can be survived and they have exceptionally skilled armorers available for repairs as necessary. I don't know of many other groups who can live up to their standards... I'd be curious to know how heavy those harnesses are...

I'm interested too. My bet is 80 lbs, plus or minus 10 pounds.

Hedgecocks harness is apparently 52 pounds. I believe Lukes is slightly heavier, but could be wrong.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:03 pm

Aaron wrote:I think I'm keeping the gambeson. With some test shots to the arm, I think the padding to the forearm is good.

I agree most people need at least splinted vambraces with padding... but why not just pad the forearms?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:07 pm

The arming coat also provides padding for the elbows, and the parts that aren't armoured.

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:49 pm

Here are some pictures.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:52 pm

Things I know I'll change.

The knee padding needs to be moved to the knee cop. It restricted me too much.

The breastplate is a heat sink. That's a no-go.

Things I might change.

I might end up with a bargrilled bascinet in stainless and a breastplate, and leave the garb at home.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:53 pm

Other then ditching the uber-wide belt for something narrower and with a real buckle it looks reasonable.

Sean

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:57 pm

Why don't you just put the chest protector under gambeson?

g-

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:52 pm

Aaron...

I've thought about how to say this for a bit... and can't come up with a good way to put it out there... so this is the best I can do.

That suit is really ugly.

What is that on your head?

Maybe when you fly places, you can just help marshal or something.

Theodulf · Post by **Theodulf** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:17 am

Titanium.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:14 am

Dante della Luna wrote:
What is that on your head?

A coif. I plan on velcroing it to the helm.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:17 am

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Why don't you just put the chest protector under gambeson?

g-

That's an excellent idea! Thank you!

But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the arming coat? I do see the merit because I could forgo the covering and just go "as is" (maybe, the arming coat has seen MANY better days).

With respect,

-Aaron

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:36 am

OK, being honest with you again-

Dump camelback. For practice that's a waste anyway. Don't even travel with it. Buy a gallon of water at each practice for your use only if you have issues with that sort of thing. That will save you some travel weight, and get that thing off your back.

Dump the "Aqua" suit man, and that thing on your helmet too. They're ugly, and certainly more of an affront than anything you could be wearing underneath.

Get the chest protector under the "arming coat." It will look "mildly" 14th century that way. Otherwise get an aluminum globose from Ice, or have Dave Rylak make you one and you finish the strapping on it- http://www.roughfromthehammer.com/parts.html. That could sit over the arming coat and would weigh just a pound or two (probably not much more than the karate thingy).

Leave the arms showing as in pic above. They are nice and new.

Dump big boots. Get smaller shoes. That will save more weight. The boots over the knee armor looks odd anyway with this suit.

Get some "correct" knees to go with the legs/cuisses )aluminum or spring or ti would save weight here as well.

Get some lightweight leather, plastic, or plastic and leather greaves.

Don't worry about the helmet. It doesn't look that bad.

You have now incredibly improved the look of your suit overall. Made it considerably more 14th century-esque, and probably saved an additional 4-5 pounds off it and flying weight.

g-

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:06 am

Thanks for the honesty.

I plan on dumping the camelback, "breastplate" and some of the padding in the helmet. The coif and T-tunic I'll think about, but I think you're right on that one too. Just extra weight.

The boots stay -- they keep the legs up and work as "greaves" to protect my shins, and look like historical riding boots. I enjoyed not having to worry about a weight belt restricting my movement.

What sort of body armour would you suggest that would go well with that kit and look "right".

I'm shocked you approve of the helmet. It's not even close to historical. IF I were to buy another helmet, what would be a good one to go with the kit (minus the parts of my suit that offend you).

With respect,

-Aaron

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:26 am

You did mention you might be changing it for a bascinet... But for now, you own it, and the trouble you are going through is enough. It is certainly OK for now and for a travel suit.

Check the note I gave about breastplates. See Dave Rylak and Ron Simmons for an aluminum kit, or Ice for a finished one.

With that and a bascinet you will have an "ok" 14th century-esque kit. Certainly good enough for travel.

Regarding the boots, if you had lightweight uppers and knees, the weight on a belt would be minimum.

g-

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:59 am

A couple of thoughts. I rather like the boots, but that's a neither here nor there thing - I like tall boots.

The blue coverup - well, it's just a miss. When I looked at the pics it made an immediate first impression that pulled up two associations - Victor von Doom and leprosy. I think we can all agree that this is not a good thing

Personally, I would not lose the arming cote. Take it out and you just have to replace some padding and find a different shirt to wear under the armour. I don't think there would be a net gain on weight or function and a net loss on appearance.

The karate chest protector was never made to be worn with that arming cote, so I don't think putting it under the cote would matter for function. Might be a problem for *fit* as I doubt the cote really has that much extra room in it....

The belt - well, mmm. I would gladly donate something more suitable to spare us all :wink:

A suggestion for a coverup that would go with the boots and look better -
Waffenrock. See pictures of HRH Konrad or Insane Irish for a couple of examples. And find a color that doesn't fight with the boots

What are you using on your shoulders ? You had mentioned football pads, but I don't see anything...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:26 am

No shoulders right now. Cet is making them for me. I'm only doing spear, and so far there isn't an issue. I would still like to have shoulders before I fight on 12SEP09. If they don't arrive in time, I'll make some "cheater" shoulders out of thick leather.

Waffenrock is a good idea! I will PM Insane Irish immediately!

A knight in the West gave me the belt... :roll:

I thought it was respectful to the knights to wear it.

With respect,

-Aaron

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:02 pm

Aaron, can you take a picture of the legs without covering them in the boots? I'm curious as to what they look like.

Thanks so much!

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:07 pm

Aaron wrote:What sort of body armour would you suggest that would go well with that kit and look "right".

Sew pockets in the arming cote and put plates in them? Then wear a jupon over all?

-Derian.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 pm

BdeB wrote:Aaron, can you take a picture of the legs without covering them in the boots? I'm curious as to what they look like.

Thanks so much!

Will do!

Cet made them and they are bulletproof. I asked that he not add a demi-greave because the boot became the demi-greave The cop of the leg also rests in a "well" produced by the boot, freeing up my legs to move without a belt (sort of).

The armour is a work in progress.

A local armourer and fighter said he was retiring from fighting, and might sell me his landsknecht-ish helmet (I remember it was quite nice).

With respect,

-Aaron

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:31 pm

One issue that I think you will run into while traveling is that in many places, you won't find much of an opportunity to "just fight spear." For that matter, in some places, you could show up looking for a pole arm to borrow, and there would not be a single one in sight.

g-

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:33 pm

Then I will pick up what's offered, and fight with that. And I'll have shoulders well before then.

Most of the time I can e-mail or call in advance and ask for something to be brought. I've even fought two sword (badly) at practice.

Thanks for the help!

-Aaron

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:45 pm

Have you picked a time frame for this harness?

Bascinet in stainless, padded aventail (no mail)
aluminum BP kit
aluminum cops
aluminum splinted arms and legs

That should come out pretty light and provide a 14th century profile, if that is what you are going for.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:51 pm

No specific time frame, but I'd like it to all "work together" if possible.

Both 14th Century and Landsknecht seem to be possible.

I've even thought of doing a Musketeer kit (two sword). That would involve a nice tabard with the fleur-de-lis on it, and maybe a leather hat, and a light shirt to cover up the elbows. In fact the Musketeer kit is still a very attractive idea. I know it's on the very, very edge of "period", but it would mean I could focus on one area (two sword)...but I remember it was darn difficult to justify. The Musketeers apparently MIGHT have existed during a New Year's Eve party in 1599, but maybe they didn't. :oops:

It's on the very, very edge of "period", if period at all.

I'll go with the cheaper, better, faster, lighter option....once I know what it is.

This is just a kit to fly places and get some bouts in. I often have some free time in the evening at some of these conferences, and I would LOVE to participate if I can. And for that matter, I could even just get the gear on and do "katas" somewhere, to get the (light) resistance of the armour and go through the motions.

With respect,

-Aaron

B. Amos · Post by **B. Amos** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:43 pm

I pritty much agree with Alaric 100%, those boots are hideous, get some light plastic leather coverd legs and aluminum knees wear a jupon to hide what ever you want up top and a bacenet and you will look spiffy

*edit* forgot about the belt, get somthing around 1"

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:10 pm

As Derian suggests...get a CdB arming cotte/jupon and put pockets in for barrel plastic or ABS, or put them in an undergarment. Saves you weight and protects the vital spots you want protected, and they can be removed to be laundered.

Then you've got some extra weight to put in to a helmet and maybe an aventail (Atlanta Armory, maybe), if you want a 14th C rig.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:07 pm

I wrote about my light kit in the other thread you started... I've gotten it down to about 25lbs for a decent looking early-mid 14thC appearance.

About your kit... I have to agree, the green and aqua looks terrible together.

I've seen good tries at the "fighting monastic" look; this isn't one of them (sorry!).

I would ditch the camelback; bring it to drink from w/out removing helm, if you want, but you don't really need to wear it.

I would ABSOLUTELY ditch the chest protector. I spent fifteen years wearing those in full contact EMA. They aren't fun to wear for three, three minute rounds, let alone for a 2-hr rez battle!

Instead, I'd point you at a COP. I used the design instructions Magnus has posted here and on his website, and modified them a bit. I made a pattern for a side-opening COP shell, and cut three copies of it from heavyweight red linen (one a tad bigger than the others to roll the seams). Then I sewed them all together, and sewed the shoulders. I cut out a number of plates from barrel plastic and riveted them in with copper roofing nails. The final result serves as excellent protection (used it at Pennsic) over a gambeson, seems pretty sturdy, and weighs under four pounds - probably less than your modern chest protector.

SS elbow & knee cops, leather rerebraces and greaves, plastic splinted leather cuisses and vambraces, 14g mild bascinet with aluminum (home-made) aventail, Revival shoes, heavyweight tunic and breeches, total kit weight about 25lbs.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:16 pm

Hi,

I had some scrap stainless steel and Cet sent some aircraft aluminum plates and shoulders. So Iâ€™m making a COP and looking at a painting of a levied archer of York, I think Iâ€™m going that route. Iâ€™ll use my Saint Sever Memorial Badge as my emblem over my heart. I can make a fur covered skull-cap out of some scrap but artificial â€œfurâ€

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:45 pm

Hi,

My kids duct taped the plates to me to get an idea if they were a good fit.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Hi,

Then I tested the plates for mobility. It works.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:51 pm

Hi,

Then my kids got out my wifeâ€™s two handed katanna, with missing thrusting tip, and took some shots at me. My son hit the plates often and commented that the tip skipped a lot off the front plate when he tried thrusts. I almost got one in the mouth that way.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:53 pm

Hi,

My daughter (who hits really rather hard) threw shots. She missed half the time while â€œthrowing lightâ€¦Daddyâ€¦â€

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:54 pm

Hi,

More to follow after I make the COP. The last time I made a COP was 2001, so this is a trip into my pastâ€¦and to see if I remember anything important.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:04 am

Oh, here are pictures of the legs Cet made for me. They are tough IMO: