Cut and Thrust - Total BS or What?

[Steven H]

Fokke-

Sorry you've been misinformed and confused on what C&T is and isn't.

It does not use armour as worn. It uses the same assumed armour standard as the other Fencing activities. If your desire is for an armour as worn fighting experience then their are occasional opportunities within Heavy List. I know that Pennsic has a few but I don't know of any other specifics.

I wouldn't call it more advanced than rapier. Just different.

You don't have to fight "Three Musketeers Style". Pick up a 52" longsword used in two hands. Study a historical master like Fiore or Lichtenauer. Then your fight will look nothing like modern fencing, rapier or the Disney movie

If that still isn't your cup of tea, and it sounds like it's not, then best of luck to you in finding what you do want.

C&T is more realistic by some measures:
* The whole body is a valid target which is more realistic.
* Steel swords are used. These, obviously, behave more like steel swords than rattan does.
* Frequently historical technique is encouraged or even required - which some would consider to make it more realistic
* An argument can be made that the shot calibration and effects are more realistic - I for one would not expect to die from a single handed sword blow to my ribs while I was wearing mail over padding

I don't want to start a debate on these topics in this thread but those are some of the ways in which it can/may be more realistic

Cheers,
Steven

[jester]

OK, C&T has been explained to me two different ways. One way i like and was getting into, the other I didnt and is why I have shied away and stuck to standard heavy.

The first way was it was a more realistic form of combat combining the adrenalin and fun of SCA armored combat and rebated steel using armor as worn rules(ie. sorry dude, I dont care how hard you hit me with your one handed sword on my plate armored chest, it ain't going through). This had me all hyped up and someone told me this again this past weekend which is why I am on this thread.

The other way was my local group telling me, all untrue. It is a realistic form fighting with rapier level armor(aside from the helm), no one wants to have to hit hard so dont wear any heavy armor, this is just pretty much an advanced form of rapier fighting.

I want a reason to build some cool new armor, but dont want to fight three musketeer style(thanks for the term Steve) as I personally dont find that style that exciting both for the imagery and fighting itself(sorry Co). So which is it?


Building on the whole using true historical styles the way they are meant to be used, how long until we see other weapons used late period as a style? Pollaxes, greatswords, etc, the way they are supposed to be used. I am sure alot of you have seen the video of the tourney out West with the guys and rebated steel pollaxes(or were they halberds?) and they didnt even have face shields.

Cut and Thrust, like Armored Combat, is what you make it. As an exercise for the student I suggest you take a look at the Cut and Thrust rules. It will take you less than twenty minutes, including the time you spend looking for the Society and Kindom level rules. It's wide open.

Because this is coming out of the Rapier field (and why exactly is this the case oh keepers of the keys of armored combat?) the early adopters tend to be oriented towards later period combat styles. And that's also where we have the most documented material from. But you could easily do an early period fight. I.33 (the earliest fighting manual we have) is now well documented and easy to pick up. Longswords/Bastard Swords appropriate for Fiore and Lichtenauer and Talhoffer are already approved for use. Armor as worn? It's not the default but there's nothing to stop you from doing it (unctious, uninformed marshals aside, but the small size of C&T is your friend there).

What is Cut and Thrust? It's whatever the participants make it. Are you a participant?

[Uadahlrich]

There have been many "Armor as Worn" tournies on the Rapier list. With both SCA heavy rapier and C&T as the default. I know there are people in every Kingdom that has approved C&T as a legal form that have run one at one time or another. But these are just another tourney format NOT the basic rule for C&T.

[Steven H]

There have been many "Armor as Worn" tournies on the Rapier list. With both SCA heavy rapier and C&T as the default. I know there are people in every Kingdom that has approved C&T as a legal form that have run one at one time or another. But these are just another tourney format NOT the basic rule for C&T.

Excellent and glad to hear that. I hadn't heard of any of these.

Cheers,
Steven

[Steve S.]

Excellent and glad to hear that. I hadn't heard of any of these.

It was explained to me at Castle Wars a couple of weekends ago that there can be "armour as worn" Cut and Thrust fights. In these situations, as I recall I was told, the only valid targets become the face and the armpit - if you are hit where you have armour the blow does not count.

The reason why you probably haven't heard of these is most rapier fighters don't wear any appreciable amount of armour - they are usually going for the "civilian dual" look.

Steve

[AvM]

I've fought in an SCA heavy rapier (not C&T) armor as worn tournament. More than once. They were awesome. I imagine a C&T one would be even more so.

[J.G.Elmslie]

is there an <type> sword on the list?

as a matter of interest, does anyone know what it takes to get a weapon onto the list of approved kit? I'm increasingly producing equipment for people, (predominantly UK-based) and would be interested to know what's required by the SCA, if it allowed me to expand a customer base.

anyone got links I could follow to find out?

If you contact your Kingdom Rapier Marshal they should be able to help you start the process.

-Antonio

I'm not an SCA Member, never have, and barring a freakish teleportation accident resulting in permanant relocation to the united states, extremely unlikely I will be.... and I have absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what a 'kingdom rapier marshal' is...

Im just a simple craftsman who would consider producing kit for SCA participants - if the hoop-jumping required is'nt impossible. from what I can tell from

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/doc ... etypes.pdf

rapier blades made by the scots company Armourclass are legal - perfect for myself as they're the supplier I like to get my blades from for reenactment use... but that list is for rapier only. I interpret a bit of what's being discussed here also cover non-rapier combat (ie, lichtenaur longsword, i.33 walpurgis etc), and I'd just need to know if that is regulated in a similar fashion, and if the regulation for the society is based on blade, or hilt, ie, the legality of custom work from people like myself onto authorised blades, or indeed, custom blades from such an authorised manufacturer (I've had, for example, type XIV arming swords made with the fullers shaped to spec... the legalities among the society, therefore would be useful to know long before I bother putting out to potential customers.)

[Dauyd]

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but the regulations for both heavy rapier and C&T revolve around the blades themselves.

Note that Column 5 on the chart you posted shows what forms tha blade is approved for- L= light rapier (Epees) H= heavy rapier C= Cut and Thrust.

The only one I see from Armour class- the model number 17C1T "Swepthilt rapier" is approved for both Heavy rapier and Cut and thrust.

Anybody can cobble together a hilt, handle, and pommel out of scrap, and as long as it is fitted on an approved blade you are good to go.

As far as getting BLADES approved, that takes a little more doing. You would have to go through the Society Rapier Marshal, who would test it fro proper flex, etc and that your production standards are such that you could produce them with enough consistency to be safe. Then I believe it would go to an experimental stage, where it was in basically a probationary status for a length of time before full approval.

[J.G.Elmslie]

As far as getting BLADES approved, that takes a little more doing. You would have to go through the Society Rapier Marshal, who would test it fro proper flex, etc and that your production standards are such that you could produce them with enough consistency to be safe. Then I believe it would go to an experimental stage, where it was in basically a probationary status for a length of time before full approval.

ace, that's mostly what I was wanting to know, given while I can, and do cutler's work onto blades (predominantly armourclass, because they are nuke-proof* ) I can also do handworked blades. as each one is one-off however, that can, I suspect, be safely discounted as practical.

Anybody can cobble together a hilt, handle, and pommel out of scrap

*has a small heart attack from the mental image formed.*
nyargh. the horror.


thanks for the help there, that summed it up perfectly for me as a non-member with no clue how the society operates. Ta.



* no, really.... Come the nuclear war, the survivors will be irradiated cockroaches with armourclass blades. nothing else will survive....

[AvM]

Suzerain,

Contact Master Cernac the Inspired (Mike Prendergast, fencing@drachenwald.sca.org). Ask what would be required to get blades you would/could make get approved for SCA use.

The Society Rapier Marshal is Sir Thomas Logan (Thomas Moore, rapier@sca.org). He, along with Society Earl Marshal Sir Omarad the Wary (Paul Newton, marshal@sca.org) will be the people doing the final approving.

You could also contact Warder Marco Borromei (marco-borromei@columbus.rr.com). He went through the blade-approval process a couple of years ago and could give you his impressions on what's involved.

[J.G.Elmslie]

Suzerain,

Contact Master Cernac the Inspired (fencing@drachenwald.sca.org). Ask what would be required to get blades you would/could make get approved for SCA use.

The Society Rapier Marshal is Sir Thomas Logan (Thomas Moore, rapier@sca.org). He, along with Society Earl Marshal Sir Omarad the Wary (Paul Newton, marshal@sca.org) will be the people doing the final approving.

You could also contact Warder Marco Borromei (marco-borromei@columbus.rr.com). He went through the blade-approval process a couple of years ago and could give you his impressions on what's involved.

thanks for those links - much appreciated given I'd not have a clue what to look for to find the people involved. I shall keep those to hand in case a fit of madness inspires me to do full manufacturing for people.

I suspect a more prudent approach for now is simply to offer to do cutler's work if it's for SCA members, using the currently listed suppliers like darkwood, if I can look at getting them without screw threads on the tangs... screw threads are naughty in mine sight.

[Dauyd]

Anybody can cobble together a hilt, handle, and pommel out of scrap

*has a small heart attack from the mental image formed.*
nyargh. the horror.

Um, just to clarify, cuz I think that the way I worded that may have been misleading-

I meant that there are no specific standards for hilts, handles, or pommels. You don't have to go through any approval process. Any Joe Scmoe could legally weld some scrap together and it would be legal.

That is not to say that any Schmoe has the ability to do so, or that it would look like anything but welded together scrap when he is done- just that it would be legal to use.

I suspect a more prudent approach for now is simply to offer to do cutler's work if it's for SCA members, using the currently listed suppliers like darkwood, if I can look at getting them without screw threads on the tangs... screw threads are naughty in mine sight.

By far the easier route would be to make custom hilts and put them on established blades. Frankly, I think there is a place for it. There just aren't many people doing that work out there- and even fewer doing it really well.

Just out of curiosity, why switch to Darkwood blades*? If the Armourclass ones are that good, why not use them?

*Not slamming Darkwood at all- I still can't help but grin every time I use mine[/quote]

[J.G.Elmslie]

Um, just to clarify, cuz I think that the way I worded that may have been misleading-

I meant that there are no specific standards for hilts, handles, or pommels. You don't have to go through any approval process. Any Joe Scmoe could legally weld some scrap together and it would be legal.

part of my "eek" at that is just plain ego. I have to hope that my own work is better than scrap metal welded together. if its not, I'm just going to have to crawl off to a corner and cry
the second is, that in some ways it surprises me given I've found that a badly made hilt is just as dangerous as a badly made blade,in that breakages can very easily do hand injuries, and the likes. I suspect it's just down to personal tastes. I've always liked to be able to use the pommel up into the user's chin, or a decent longsword cross poke to the eye.
one of these days, I intend to do an experimental bit, and try out some of the spiked pommels and crosses from the Thalhoffer Thott ms in hardened steel for judicial duelling, and see how they handle.

By far the easier route would be to make custom hilts and put them on established blades. Frankly, I think there is a place for it. There just aren't many people doing that work out there- and even fewer doing it really well.

Just out of curiosity, why switch to Darkwood blades*? If the Armourclass ones are that good, why not use them?

*Not slamming Darkwood at all- I still can't help but grin every time I use mine

only reason I would switch to darkwood, really, is that Armourclass' longsword and shortsword blades are'nt on that list, which might cause issues for SCA customers. personally, I cant emphasise just how absolutely underwear-moisteningly good armourclass' stuff is, as a general rule. Their off the shelf kit, from personal experience, is far tougher and harder-wearing than the equivalent kit from Albion, for instance, that costs a good 100 quid more. they have a few bad points - they have an annoying habit of having tips that are very slightly asymmetrical, and their longswords have a very slight narrowing at the tang shoulder and a thickening to the tang that makes fitting a cross perfectly without a rattle very tricky. And armourclass themselves are'nt the fastest of suppliers on the planet. or possibly even off the planet.
but the wait is worth it.

the other reason to do one or two on darkwood blades, to be honest is simply to show it can be done, for potential customers, and to get my hands on tangs of their blades, so any customers who do request them, I can work on waxes for bronzes without a delivery wait.

and I know what you mean about the grin. some geometries are dead, lifeless lumps... and some... some just leap out at you screaming "use me!". those are the ones you cant help but have a manic grin when fighting.

[Alex Baird]

Suzerain:

As a former Kingdom level rapier marshal (KRM), the process for getting a blade on the "approved" list consists of basically getting a sample into the hands of the Society Marshal of Fence (currently, the aforementioned Sir Thomas Logan, a good guy). He will then test it for safety within the SCA parameters. If your blades have similar characteristics to the approved list, you would likely pass.

As for using Darkwood blades, I'd imagine that they would be willing to sell some unthreaded blades, since they do sell bare blades and do welcome custom orders. Wouldn't hurt to ask.

[cfournier]

from what I can tell from

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/doc ... etypes.pdf

rapier blades made by the scots company Armourclass are legal - perfect for myself as they're the supplier I like to get my blades from for reenactment use... but that list is for rapier only. I interpret a bit of what's being discussed here also cover non-rapier combat (ie, lichtenaur longsword, i.33 walpurgis etc), and I'd just need to know if that is regulated in a similar fashion, and if the regulation for the society is based on blade, or hilt,

It's worth noting that we SCA folk are VERY sloppy in our terminology. When we say "Rapier", what we really mean is "Anything with a steel blade that we're allowed to use."

When I use Meyer's langschwert techniques, with a 42" blade and a 12" handle, we call it "rapier". When my Knight uses Silver's sword and buckler, with a proper rebated backsword, we call it "rapier".

The thing to look for in the document you linked is in the fifth column, "Society Approved Use", where we define three different classifications: "L" means it's a "light" weapon (epees, foils, a few others); "H" indicated a "heavy" weapon (ArmorClass, Del Tin, Darkwood, schlagers of all variety, etc); "C" is a "Cut-and-Thrust" legal blade. Every time two fencers face each other, they have to determine which class of combat their doing, and to use appropriate blades. So, for example, we'd never allow the ArmorClass blade to be used against an epee...


As you'll note, the ArmorClass blade is legal for Heavy rapier (used against other Heavy blades, like the Darkwood, or a schlager), AND legal for Cut-and-Thrust.

As has been pointed out above, the SCA puts very few requirements on hilt construction (basically, don't make anything that's DESIGNED to trap or break the opponent's blade), so you should have no trouble at all mounting ArmorClass blades on your hiltwork, and selling them for SCA use.


If the finished products happen to be things that resemble and are appropriate for longsword, arming sword, backsword or any other historical style of blade, well, I apologize that the SCA will, nonetheless, call them "rapiers".

Hope this has helped clarify!

Christian Fournier, Chicago IL