Cut and Thrust - Total BS or What?

[Steve S.]

They look like they're fighting submerged in molassas.

It looked like regular SCA combat to me, just using metal swords.

The biggest problem I have with "rapier" combat is I just can't get past the whole peascod style. Blech. I'm either thinking "3 Musketeers" or "Conquistadors".

Neither one jives with my idea of the Middle Ages.

Steve

[raito]

I am wondering if the allowed blow strength leads to people winning fights who are extremely quick with the wrist, but land a sword blow that even sharpened would fail miserably.

Please read the rules. It is assumed to be unarmoured combat. How hard does a razor need to hit you to be effective? As well, as an adjuct of SCA rapier, it is more along the line of genttlemen practicing the art of defense, where drawing blood is sufficient.

[Count Johnathan]

I was watching this video... is there a rule that says you have to telegraph all your shots, and swing way out away from your body?

They look like they're fighting submerged in molassas.

I don't know if I can describe it properly but when you watch two people who know what they're doing, it's definitely not rapier.

The first set of boubts here look pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rfWRnLS ... re=related

Watched the video.
It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

[Derian le Breton]

Given that these are rebated blades, and that the combatants are wearing gorgets, I think that's exceedingly unlikely.

-Derian.

[Tibbie Croser]

Who are the people in the video? Is it possible to contact them and get their explanations of what they were doing? What was the context of the bouts?

I'm leery of folks making judgments based on videos, as a number of videos on the AA seem to be interpreted very differently depending on how well people know the context, e.g., the Duke Logan video.

[raito]

SCA Rapier is pointwork with very limited edgeplay, C&T explicitly provides for much more use of the edge and (imo, at least) also allows for more force than is permitted within SCA Rapier.

Since I keep blathering on about calibration, here's the quotes.

1.2 A 4 4) Striking an opponent with excessive force or with deliberate intent to injure is forbidden. Intentional body-to-body contact is forbidden. However, as rapier combat is a martial activity, it is understood that incidental or accidental body-to-body contact will occur from time to time.

1.2 B 1) In Light Rapier and Heavy Rapier, valid blows are struck by: thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) and drawing the edge of the blade across part of the opponent’s body (draw cut). In Cut-and-thrust swordplay, valid blows are struck by thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) or cutting with a percussive impact (percussive cut). Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as not to injure the opponent while still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut. An injury is defined as something that causes the person to be unable to continue fighting, even briefly'.

1.2 C 1 c) In judging blows, all combatants are presumed to be wearing common civil attire of the period, not armor. Common civil attire will be defined as: a linen shirt, breeches or a skirt, stockings, and shoes.

1.2 C 1 e) In rapier combat, blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade, extremely sharp on point and edge. Any blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow. Any blow that strikes a mask, helm or gorget shall be counted as though it struck flesh. Slaps, or merely brushing the cloth, are not considered good.

I'm not seeing anything indicating that C&T allows for greater force here.

And Logos, I'd love to. It's been far too long.

[Saritor]

It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

That action occurs two or three times in the video. There's one at about 40 seconds in that hits the chest, it looks like.

These blades have flex on them. On top of that, all the participants in the video are fighting with metal gorgets on.

I've yet to have any of my schlager or rapier simulator blades break on me, or have a C&T blade fail either in a WMA or an SCA venue. My blades get trashed a lot more at WMA practices, so I expect it will happen there first.

Once I get my blades back, I'll take some photos after yanking the tips off to show you what the blunted end looks like.

[Count Johnathan]

It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

That action occurs two or three times in the video. There's one at about 40 seconds in that hits the chest, it looks like.

These blades have flex on them. On top of that, all the participants in the video are fighting with metal gorgets on.

I've yet to have any of my schlager or rapier simulator blades break on me, or have a C&T blade fail either in a WMA or an SCA venue. My blades get trashed a lot more at WMA practices, so I expect it will happen there first.

Once I get my blades back, I'll take some photos after yanking the tips off to show you what the blunted end looks like.

It's OK it's just my personal opinion that it looks very unsafe. For some reason I have it deep inside me to care a great deal about people being safe and I just can't help myself but to comment on it when I see something that looks so ready for an accident resulting in serious injury.

Personally I am well aware that it takes little force to drive a piece of steel into flesh even blunted. They flex nicely against metal but flesh is softer and will give before a steel blade would.

My apologies I just want people to be safe out there. Not trying to give people grief about it. People assume the risk they are comfortable with.

Some people like playing with poisonous snakes which seems to me just as silly. Have a good time doing what you want I'll just stand back cringing. I know it sounds stupid coming from a guy who likes to bash his friends over the head with clubs using "killing" force.

[Dauyd]

Snipping out the relevant statements:

) Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as not to injure the opponent while still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut.

In rapier combat, blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade, extremely sharp on point and edge. Any blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow.


I'm not seeing anything indicating that C&T allows for greater force here.

The difference, as I see it, is in what amount of force is "the necessary impact for a valid cut" VS. "Any blow that would have penetrated the skin", with the first being the calibration standard for Cuts and the second for thrusts.

I know that for thrusts, test have been done with sharpened rapiers on pigskin covered with a layer of linen, and it was found that a mere 3 pounds of pressure was enough to penetrate, thus the "no such thing as light" standard that is used for regular rapier combat.

Is the force to injure the same for a percussive cut? Is it more? Less?

Since it isn't that sharp point, I would hazard a guess that the force needed to injure would be more with an edge vs a point. If so, then it seems to me the argument could very well be made that- by to the rules- a cut requires a higher level of calibration than a thrust, and thus C&T, being more cut based would therefore follow that standard.

[Dauyd]

It's OK it's just my personal opinion that it looks very unsafe. For some reason I have it deep inside me to care a great deal about people being safe and I just can't help myself but to comment on it when I see something that looks so ready for an accident resulting in serious injury.

And of course, you are the only one on the whole wide world that cares, right?

The thrusting is not a new thing with cut and thrust. It is done more with regular rapier, which has been going on in the SCA for over 30 years without major incident.

[Jon Barber]

It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

That action occurs two or three times in the video. There's one at about 40 seconds in that hits the chest, it looks like.

These blades have flex on them. On top of that, all the participants in the video are fighting with metal gorgets on.

I've yet to have any of my schlager or rapier simulator blades break on me, or have a C&T blade fail either in a WMA or an SCA venue. My blades get trashed a lot more at WMA practices, so I expect it will happen there first.

Once I get my blades back, I'll take some photos after yanking the tips off to show you what the blunted end looks like.

It's OK it's just my personal opinion that it looks very unsafe. For some reason I have it deep inside me to care a great deal about people being safe and I just can't help myself but to comment on it when I see something that looks so ready for an accident resulting in serious injury.

Personally I am well aware that it takes little force to drive a piece of steel into flesh even blunted. They flex nicely against metal but flesh is softer and will give before a steel blade would.

The blades are designed to flex on impact; they also have (at least all of mine have) large rubber tips on them with a washer underneath, so what hits the person is a roughly 7/8" wide piece of rubber, not metal. They are designed as practice weapons, not just blunted swords.

In 7 years of doing this I've never received anything worse than a bruise, or ever felt unsafe. If I thought it was genuinely dangerous I wouldn't do it.

[Count Johnathan]

It's OK it's just my personal opinion that it looks very unsafe. For some reason I have it deep inside me to care a great deal about people being safe and I just can't help myself but to comment on it when I see something that looks so ready for an accident resulting in serious injury.

And of course, you are the only one on the whole wide world that cares, right?

The thrusting is not a new thing with cut and thrust. It is done more with regular rapier, which has been going on in the SCA for over 30 years without major incident.

No need for you to be angry that I don't want to see people injured is there? I didn't say I was the only person who cares.

[LR of E]

Steve -SoFC

C&T is alive and well in Meridies, if you make it over to Castle Wars in the fall I'm sure there will be some there.

Morgan

[Amanda M]

Perhaps you could give it a try Johno and see first hand what it's like? I'm not sure if you've ever made a foray into the non rattan arts, but I think before you judge it you should try it. You will probably find it's not your thing but maybe it will help to allay some of your safety concerns.

[Tibbie Croser]

Raito, I think some kingdoms, such as Atlantia, have laws that differentiate calibration in Cut and Thrust from that in regular rapier. For example, from the Atlantian rapier rules: "3.11.2.3 Fighters who choose to participate in Cut & Thrust combat acknowledge that they will be struck with a harder blow than they would normally receive in heavy or light rapier combat, and they should act with the interest of the safety of their opponent in mind."

Calibration differences are the sort of thing that will probably have to be sorted out by the Society Rapier Marshal.

[Dauyd]

No need for you to be angry that I don't want to see people injured is there? I didn't say I was the only person who cares.

Not angry that you "care". Just irritated by the implication that people that disagree don't care. That is the implication that you give with your statements.

[LOGOS]

Have a good time doing what you want I'll just stand back cringing. I know it sounds stupid coming from a guy who likes to bash his friends over the head with clubs using "killing" force.

Actually, that show's more of an open mind than some have. Thanks.

[J.G.Elmslie]

Watched the video.
It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

No offence intended, but, to be blunt -much like the swords, by the way - you have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about, mate.

At best, it's ignorance of the realities of how the martial arts actual operate and the body mechanics used by those who train with those. at worst, its wilful scaremongering, of painting a grossly distorted picture of the weapons which your personal bias opposes.

[Count Johnathan]

Perhaps you could give it a try Johno and see first hand what it's like? I'm not sure if you've ever made a foray into the non rattan arts, but I think before you judge it you should try it. You will probably find it's not your thing but maybe it will help to allay some of your safety concerns.

No thanks really.

I have fought rapier one time but it was against another hardsuit fighter and we both accepted the risk of high speed full contact. It was fun but I would not subject others to my style of "sword fighting" and would be considered excessive. The rapier fighters who witnessed it were stunned and shocked by the speed of our private contest.

Part of what I love about rattan fighting is the speed and power of it. In order for it to be a competative contest speed is of the essence and with that comes power. I would prefer to avoid entering into a contest that I would desire to win but stood the chance of being excessive in my attempt. I do have control but slowing down to avoid hurting someone would just reduce the sport to play fighting IMO. Not intending to insult anyone I respectfully would decline any such invitation.

Many would not understand but from the time I was a small child it has been etched into my thought process that swinging steel at others is a serious no-no. They are tools for killing. To me it's a lot like pointing a gun at somebody.

To Suzerain - I would be more than happy to show you my prowess with whatever form of weaponry you desired if ever we should meet. I know more than you think.

Edit to add: From another post Suzerain said "...while emphasising the importance of respect for the reality"

Something that I might see but you ignore.

[Amanda M]

I just think it's a mistake to base your opinion of a martial form on the gut reactions of what you were taught as a kid, or practicing it in a way which is far outside the current ruleset. Particularly when you have an impact on whether or not those arts will be allowed to be put into practice.

[Maeryk]

I think a hell of a lot more people get injured fighting heavy than do fighting rapier or (and?) cut and thrust, even factored "per capita".

Johno.. if you are that concerned about safety, better put down the stick..wouldn't want to hurt someone.

[Count Johnathan]

I just think it's a mistake to base your opinion of a martial form on the gut reactions of what you were taught as a kid, or practicing it in a way which is far outside the current ruleset. Particularly when you have an impact on whether or not those arts will be allowed to be put into practice.

Have no concern about that. I am in no position nor would I want to be in any position to be in charge of the rules for everybody in the SCA. I couldn't imagine the headache that goes along with that job. I would have to deal with people like me all the time I don't see that I have any direct impact on those forms of combat being used or not other than having a pretty firm opinion on them.

The only part of me participating with rapier that would be outside of the rule set would be the speed at which I feel a sword fight needs in order to be anywhere close to realistic or competitive. For me the challenge would be fighting less than half speed to avoid skewering someone. I like the fact that when I deal a person a solid blow in my preferred sport they thank me for it instead of complaining that I was excessive.

[iomtalach]

I was watching this video... is there a rule that says you have to telegraph all your shots, and swing way out away from your body?

They look like they're fighting submerged in molassas.

I don't know if I can describe it properly but when you watch two people who know what they're doing, it's definitely not rapier.

The first set of boubts here look pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rfWRnLS ... re=related

Watched the video.
It looks like it's just ripe for someone to lean into one of those sweaping underneath upward thrusting strokes. I wonder what the consensus will be and how quickly it will go away when somebody gets a wide blade sticking out the back of their neck and dies right there in front of everyone. My such realism!

You live in a funny world.

It's sure not related to the real world.

[Count Johnathan]

You live in a funny world.

It's sure not related to the real world.

Yes accidents only happen in my fantasy land. Nothing bad ever really happens. Death and destruction is just a dream friend.....

[Marco-borromei]

The only part of me participating with rapier that would be outside of the rule set would be the speed at which I feel a sword fight needs in order to be anywhere close to realistic or competitive.

There's no speed limit in any of the three subsets of SCA Rapier, just the same as SCA Rattan. Go ahead and move as fast as you want.

If someone were to be concerned that they would not be able to obey the calibration rules for either Rapier or Rattan, that is a different matter entirely.

Speed and calibration, while related, are not completely inseparable.

Marco

[iomtalach]

Who are the people in the video? Is it possible to contact them and get their explanations of what they were doing? What was the context of the bouts?

I'm leery of folks making judgments based on videos, as a number of videos on the AA seem to be interpreted very differently depending on how well people know the context, e.g., the Duke Logan video.

The first bout is Dom Estaban (he received his WS about an hour before this video, if I recall. He's also known as "Estaban" here on the archive...Ugo's apprentice. He's fighting Tulloran.

Their bout is the only one worth watching, really.

I'm the marshal in the black robe in the background.

As to the apparent speed of the bout...I've fought Estaban a lot, he's a very fast person. I guarantee he wasn't holding back on the speed in that first bout, and that bruises resulted.

I'm sorry it looks slower than rattan, but that's what happens when you use swords.

Perhaps it was just the video. If you have facebook, here's a video of Estaban ACTUALLY moving slow in a C&T bout:
http://www.facebook.com/randy.packer?re ... =552611172
Well, slow for him, anyway.

[Baron Alejandro]

Yes accidents only happen in my fantasy land.

And behind shields on that unarmoured elbow.

Neither one jives with my idea of the Middle Ages.

Good thing the governing documents say 'and Renaissance', then!
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[Count Johnathan]

The only part of me participating with rapier that would be outside of the rule set would be the speed at which I feel a sword fight needs in order to be anywhere close to realistic or competitive.

There's no speed limit in any of the three subsets of SCA Rapier, just the same as SCA Rattan. Go ahead and move as fast as you want.

If someone were to be concerned that they would not be able to obey the calibration rules for either Rapier or Rattan, that is a different matter entirely.

Speed and calibration, while related, are not completely inseparable.

Marco

Hmm then I will echo Dante and ask why they look like they're fighting submerged in molassas? But it is a rhetorical question. I know why. Safety. You cannot be as fast as you would be in a real life and death struggle and maintain the safety of the participants with little armor and steel weaponry. In full plate sure but not in a fencing mask.

Don't get me wrong here I appreciate that they are attempting to be as safe as possible but it kind of hinders the spirit of the contest IMO.

[Amanda M]

I just think it's a mistake to base your opinion of a martial form on the gut reactions of what you were taught as a kid, or practicing it in a way which is far outside the current ruleset. Particularly when you have an impact on whether or not those arts will be allowed to be put into practice.

Have no concern about that. I am in no position nor would I want to be in any position to be in charge of the rules for everybody in the SCA. I couldn't imagine the headache that goes along with that job. I would have to deal with people like me all the time I don't see that I have any direct impact on those forms of combat being used or not other than having a pretty firm opinion on them.

The only part of me participating with rapier that would be outside of the rule set would be the speed at which I feel a sword fight needs in order to be anywhere close to realistic or competitive. For me the challenge would be fighting less than half speed to avoid skewering someone. I like the fact that when I deal a person a solid blow in my preferred sport they thank me for it instead of complaining that I was excessive.

As a royal peer and member of the chivalry though your words and opinion carry more weight than say mine, because of position within the society. I had a lot of reservations about fighting with rattan when I first joined the SCA. But I went out and tried it so I would have some idea of what it was like.

[Maeryk]

The only part of me participating with rapier that would be outside of the rule set would be the speed at which I feel a sword fight needs in order to be anywhere close to realistic or competitive.

There's no speed limit in any of the three subsets of SCA Rapier, just the same as SCA Rattan. Go ahead and move as fast as you want.

If someone were to be concerned that they would not be able to obey the calibration rules for either Rapier or Rattan, that is a different matter entirely.

Speed and calibration, while related, are not completely inseparable.

Marco

Hmm then I will echo Dante and ask why they look like they're fighting submerged in molassas? But it is a rhetorical question. I know why. Safety. You cannot be as fast as you would be in a real life and death struggle and maintain the safety of the participants with little armor and steel weaponry. In full plate sure but not in a fencing mask.

Don't get me wrong here I appreciate that they are attempting to be as safe as possible but it kind of hinders the spirit of the contest IMO.

WHich is why you are shitting bricks about it.. because it's "Dangerous". Ever think the speed is an indication of _SKILL_, rather than just the sort of "keep bashing till something gets through" mentality of most rattan fighters?

[Guy Dawkins]

It's called precision.

[Count Johnathan]

I'm sorry it looks slower than rattan, but that's what happens when you use swords.

Well unless you move it faster anyway. A well balanced blade is extremely fast. Can't blame the weapon. A sword is only as fast as you can swing it.

[Steve S.]

Good thing the governing documents say 'and Renaissance', then!

I know, I know, and I don't mind them doing their thing.

I can't explain it. I just, for some reason, dig from about 1200-1400. Earlier than that doesn't do it for me. For example, the Norman Conquest thing doesn't do it for me. The Roman era doesn't do it for me. And the Renaissance doesn't do it for me. I don't know why.

The Black Prince of Wales, he does it for me.

Steve

[iomtalach]

You live in a funny world.

It's sure not related to the real world.

Yes accidents only happen in my fantasy land. Nothing bad ever really happens. Death and destruction is just a dream friend.....

Hi, my name is Randy Packer.

I've been a WMA instructor for almost 7 years, running the largest school in North America...probably the second largest in the world. I'm assuming Guy Windsor's in Finland is bigger. I've been doing C&T since 1999. I'm a rapier and heavy fighter in the SCA, and a WS.

It's no exaggeration to say that I've taught thousands of students, bouting under a system far less stringent than the SCA's, with force levels that exceed heavy combat. All steel, minimal armour. Sometimes just a mask and a t-shirt...sometimes not even that.

Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed.

And....not one serious accident. Not one.

We've had broken blades, failed masks...no serious accidents.

None.

None in C&T locally, either.

You'd be amazed what a little safety training can do for people.

Accidents do indeed happen.

They are just that, accidents.

Or should we ban heavy fighting? I saw a dude get his arm broken from a hard hit! We can't allow that! It's dangerous!

[Baron Alejandro]

The Black Prince of Wales, he does it for me.

Steve