Question about historical Precedence

[tdrueck]

I have a question about historical precedence.

I have a similar thread in historical research so if that one would fit better here then can someone who knows what their doing better than I do move it here?

ok I'm a SCAdian Fencer and I was wondering if there is any reason why I couldnt make a Jester fencing persona? I havent found much historical precidence for an armed Jester. but who is to say it couldnt happen.

so if anyone has any knowledge of why this could or could not be historically acurate please feel free to let me know

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

I don't recall his name, but I do recall that in Tudor or Elizabethan time there was a rather well-known jester - the witty, professional type of jester - whose skill with a blade got him out of some situations from which his wit could not extricate him.

I even recall one of his recorded quips.

"What think you of soldiers in peacetime?"

"Marry, I think they're like chimneys in summer!"

There is also the character Touchstone, in Shakespeare's As You Like It, who had been a courtier but became a fool to escape the machinations at court. He had apparently "measured swords" with one or two others in his time.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

You will find 'tourney costumes' of ~foolish fellows with really long ears in the late 15thC? They look like this:



You can find them in groups, not just individual examples.

[Karen Larsdatter]

You will find 'tourney costumes' of ~foolish fellows with really long ears in the late 15thC?

http://larsdatter.com/foolwear.htm shows jesters in the sort of clothing you describe, but here's some illustrations in particular showing them relating to tournaments:
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... artobj=277
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 008558.JPG
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rarm/hod_22.229.htm
These aren't really directly involved in the tournament combat, though.

[chef de chambre]

The asses ears (for they are ears, not horns) are traditional for a fools motley through the late Middle Ages.

Your problem will be fighting is not the occupation of a fool, they make quips, and jests, and say things aloud that nobody else can say without reprocussions because of their status. Were they to be fencing, they would probably be mocking the activity with a stick. The former courtier example, probably had the now fool having crossed swords as a courtier, not when he was a fool, because the fool was inviolate - people did not fight duels with fools.

Even Charles the Bold's fool (Glorioux?), who accompanied him on his military campaigns, we have zero evidence for him participating in fighting, and even he could get away with saying what could not be said (considering Charles the Bolds alleged temper).

In example, his jest at Neuss, when after the siege and negotiation, Charles the Bold is showing the emperor Fredrich III his artillery train, and bosting to him says 'these are the keys with which I shall open the towns of France', and the fool pipes in 'Radiant majesty, have my master show you the key with which he opened Beauvais!" (a failed siege in 1472, even with the gates of the town blown in, and the walls breeched in places). Immediately after the battle of Grandson, the fool riding by Charles during the retreat piped up and quipped "My Lord, we have been well and truely Hannibaled today!" Charles allegedly cracked a smile.

[InsaneIrish]

fencing is something you do, it is not a job occupation. Could a fool fence? Sure, would he do so wearing his fool's garb? Probably not, not unless, as Chef says, he was mocking fencing.

[tdrueck]

so is this a consensus that I can pull it off or that it wouldnt be well recieved well?

[chef de chambre]

It is a statement that there is no historical record I am aware of, with a person employed as a fool, engaging in fencing or dueling while employed as a fool.

[audax]

I don't reccomend it unless you do it as part of a jest. NOt as your full time persona.

[tdrueck]

thanks guys

[Blaine de Navarre]

Unless you are actually good enough to add some "Harlem Globetrotters" flair to your fencing, and make it a show...

[Guy Dawkins]

so is this a consensus that I can pull it off or that it wouldnt be well recieved well?

Master John Inchingham has a fool persona and is one of the people who first brought fencing to the Midrealm.

[tdrueck]

Unless you are actually good enough to add some "Harlem Globetrotters" flair to your fencing, and make it a show...

I could add lots of little tricks... but doing so would impede my actual fencing. I'm currently a little out of practice as it is.

[Karl Helweg]

I have a question about historical precedence.

I have a similar thread in historical research so if that one would fit better here then can someone who knows what their doing better than I do move it here?

ok I'm a SCAdian Fencer and I was wondering if there is any reason why I couldn't make a Jester fencing persona? I haven't found much historical precedence for an armed Jester. but who is to say it couldn't happen.

so if anyone has any knowledge of why this could or could not be historically accurate please feel free to let me know

Mummers might be what you are actually looking for. They wore a slightly more serious but garish guarb with cooler boots. They danced, jested, taught dancing, cavorted, and put on plays. They often wore mesh masks, carried torches, and are almost always show packing swords. Dancing was a way to pick sword fights. No man went dancing without his hat, cape, and sword.

Mummers apparently enjoyed some status and freedoms. They were sort of a combination actor-Mason and were old by the Renaissance. Mummers are also a terribly under portrayed persona in the SCA and Renn Faires.

Mummers also practiced a type a of intentionally dangerous sword dance called in rival teams called boffins or buffins. Like NASCAR most spectators were there to see who got hurt. Sort of a way to duel when and where dueling was banned.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Dunno about all that, but I think the concept of "mumming" varied considerably from country to country (and as time progressed, etc.); see
"Elements of the Pageant" in English pageantry: an historical outline; "Social forms, literary contents: Lydgate's mummings" in John Lydgate and the making of public culture; there's also a theory that the grotesques in the Luttrell Psalter were meant to be mummers. (I'm not sure I really believe that; I think some 14th century animal-faced grotesques were probably mummers, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable giving that name to all of them.)

(And here's a bit on early mummeries in relation to morris dancing; and morris dancing is another one of those things that evolves from the medieval concept to the modern. I've set aside a section of http://larsdatter.com/dancers.htm that's just morris dancers, which look quite different from the way "traditional" morris dancing goes today.)

It looks like there's a good section on mummery and its evolution in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0754602303?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0754602303">Masks and Masking in Medieval and Early Tudor England</a> too, but only snippets are accessible online.

More on mummery and its history at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=383 too.

[Karl Helweg]

Mummers are a complicated subject but should provide many opportunities for persona play.

[img]http://www.tech.org/~cleary/foolbolt.jpg[/img]

[Robert of Canterbury]

You should read,

"Fools and Jesters at tthe English Court"
John Southworth
Sutton Publishing
ISBN 0 7509 3477 8

It is a must read for anyone with an interest in Fools, Minstrels, Jongleurs, Jesters etc.

It has a chapter on Warrior Fools, the gist of which I will not go into here, as you need to read the whole chapter, and better, the whole book to get the context.

It's quite readily available, I got a copy recently from Abe Books for £6.