Lamellar/Scale question:size,type, and gauge

[madlarks]

I'm in the process of building my own armor and will soon have acquired the tools to do so.

With access to a fair amount of tools in a apartment complex's maintenance shop I am making lamellar for myself and scale for my roommate.
We have the tools and the time to do it plus its still alot cheaper than buying it premaid.

I am going for mamluk circa. 12-13th centuries. (Middle east/turk/mongol)
My roommate is going Dacian 100-500 A.D. for his scale

On to the questions:

Debating between mild steel and stainless for the lamellar. I buy the scrap stuff so its not really a pricing issue but a general looks maintenance issue. Which ones last better, need more tlc etc.

Also what gauges should I buy them in for each respective type. I'm going for 18-20 for mild and I've heard that stainless if stronger/weaker then mild so I"m unsure which to use.

Also the size I'm going for is 2in wide and 3 tall with rounded edges (tombstone style). Does this sound about right? Will this be too small or too large?

Finally what is the difference between scale and lamellar. I know that scale is actually attached to a backing but how? Does it always have to be? Can I use lames from my lamellar turn them upside down and stick them on a piece of leather for scale? Or is it more complicated than that?

Sorry for the battery of questions as these still remained for trolling and searching for a month or so and lurking for over a year. Hopefully soon I will be getting pics up of my first pieces of junk *cough* armor.

[Milos N.]

A battery of specific questions is always welcome on the AA, so don't apologize.

Stainless is a bit stronger and is almost no-maintenance material. If you decide to use it it WILL eat up all of your cutting, drilling and punching tools quickly. I advise you to learn how to sharpen your cutting tools and drill bits.
Take it a gauge lighter.

Mild is easy to work, but it needs regular oiling and occasional cleaning even if blackened during its use.

Get good drill bits. Depending on your average armour thickness, you shall decide on how thick the scales themselves should be. If there is significant overlap, scales should be thinner. I wouldn't go thicker than 18-20 ga in any case. Mind you, that you don't want your armour thicker than 16-14 ga on average. So, if there is 100% overlap among scales, you could go for 22ga scales. If scales overlap in three layers, go for 24ga or thinner.

Make sure that holes and edges are clean, so they don't cut through laces. You can staple scales into rows with some wire. That will save you some maintenance time in the future, but i Don't know if it is appropriate for the intended period and cultures.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

[Norman]

I am going for mamluk circa. 12-13th centuries. (Middle east/turk/mongol)
My roommate is going Dacian 100-500 A.D. for his scale
On to the questions:

> Debating between mild steel and stainless for the lamellar. I buy the scrap stuff so its not really a pricing issue but a general looks maintenance issue. Which ones last better, need more tlc etc.

The whole point of going with stainless is that it is just that - no rust, less care
However, some realy strict "authenticitists" will not like stainless

> Also what gauges should I buy them in for each respective type. I'm going for 18-20 for mild and I've heard that stainless if stronger/weaker then mild so I"m unsure which to use.

stainless is harder than mild
I'd do 18guage mild, 20 guage stainless
I guess that's another advantage to stainless - a lighter suit.

> Also the size I'm going for is 2in wide and 3 tall with rounded edges (tombstone style). Does this sound about right? Will this be too small or too large?

I think this is a good SCA-use size. but if you have the patience, make the lamellar a bit narrower 1.5X3 in (or even narrower - just make sure to leave enough space for the center hole when overlapped);
make the scale smaller all around - like 3X5 cm (1.2 X 2 in)

> Finally what is the difference between scale and lamellar.

This is modern terminology. As you say - scale is attached to a backing, lamellar is just to "each other"

> I know that scale is actually attached to a backing but how? Does it always have to be? Can I use lames from my lamellar turn them upside down and stick them on a piece of leather for scale? Or is it more complicated than that?

You would idealy want different hole patterns depending on if you are attaching to itself or to a back.
This shows the basic lamellar pattern and lacing http://www.redkaganate.org/martial/armo ... amlr.shtml
An early European scale usualy has six holes:
* two pairs of holes on the sides which are used to staple the plates together into a single horizontal strip
* one pair of holes in the middle (usualy upper middle) which is used to sew/tie the scales to the backing (shirt)
Here is an example piece randomly found online

from http://www.larp.com/legioxx/squamata.html
Now - you can certainly do this with 7 hole lamellar -- you'd just have a holes to ignore (or to use decoratively)
But again -- in the most usual cases - the plate proportions are different. Scale tends to be more "squarish" while lamellar is more elongated.

[Donald St. Colin]

Scales don't have to be attached to a backing matterial. They can be linked together like maile. Here is a link to the ring lord scale page. You get into maintenance problems with backing matterial. Unless you like to be slightly smelly, then.....
http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplay ... 1526814084
Lam still sounds like the way you want to go. Less cutting than scale.

[Milos N.]

Errr... Not to be an a nitpick, but how does that relate to this : ?

I am going for mamluk circa. 12-13th centuries. (Middle east/turk/mongol)
My roommate is going Dacian 100-500 A.D. for his scale

[Clinker]

Dacian scales, like a lot of ancient scales are SMALL, about the size of your thumb joint. And thin, 24-26 gauge. Often of bronze. But that is for use against real arrows and light swords. SCA use is against clubs, so bigger and rigid is better. Stainless is more rigid per thickness, and needs little upkeep, (hint, hint).

Lamellar need not be the same size throughout the entire suit. Longer lames were used in areas not needing much flexibility:ie the torso and thighs in a long suit. Depending on the location on the armor, lacing patterns vary with regard to the rows. Center holes to have loose hanging rows for mobility, ie at the waist, hips and shoulders, end-to-end lacing for increased rigidity, ie torso. Lames in a row are always always firmly laced.

The first picture looks odd because ALL the lames are not only the same size, but are laced the same way (ie tight), without regard for their function in the armor. It works, but is clumsier than necessary. In any case the lacing style, and lame sizes generally change depending on their location on the armor. Example: the Quin terra cotta armors, or 15-16c Japanese armors show the different types of lacing on a single armor very well. I use them as an example because they are extant, and can be closely studied. Conversly, some of the late Mongolian armors is relatively wide rows, loosely laced to "Accordian" when packed for the entire armor and has minimal shaping to the body, although the rows are not all the same width.
Most central/west Asian armor is only seen in Art, the later extant armor seen in museums is often more of a mail/plate/lame construction very different from the earlier laced material .

Some armors are very long, shin-to-neck. others are very short, waist length, up or down a bit. Often, lamellar chaps, tied around the waist to protect the hips and legs are worn with short armors, which is certainly versatile, and gets some of the weight off the shoulders, and onto the hips. The size of these lames is not necessarily the same as the torso armor. Depending on body shape this lower armor could be convenient.

Gather your information for the place and time and style and start lacing. You can always re-lace, and even repunch holes as necessary.

[Sextus Maximus]

Bigger scales are not necessarily better in rigidity. My scale shirt is made of 1.25 inch long and under a 1/2 inch wide and are composed of .032 410 spring stanless that have been heat treated with a linen backing. It took 1500 to make shirt and I am not a big guy at all. The shirt works great for SCA use and sometimes I have to gauge if a blow is good or not sometimes due to the great protection it gives. Smaller scales give great mobility as well...