campaign to end name uniqueness - SCA

ursulageorges · Post by **ursulageorges** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:19 am

Names registered with the SCA College of Arms have to be unique (even if you want to give your son your SCA name, say, you can't do that.)

This isn't an authentic requirement, of course. For that reason, some of us who are enthusiastic about MEDIEVAL names would like to make having a unique name optional, rather than a requirement.

To do this, we need your help! The first step is simple: if you have a registered SCA name, and wouldn't mind somebody else having a name with a similar spelling or pronunciation, you can send in a letter giving permission for others to use a name like yours.

You can find more information about the name uniqueness debate, and a form that will generate a "blanket permission to conflict", at this website:

http://medievalscotland.org/sca/cenu.shtml

--Ursula Georges.

Edward MacTavish · Post by **Edward MacTavish** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:39 am

Might that not cause issues? Duke Ima Badass lives in the west. Ld Ima Badass lives in Ansteora. Ld. Ima moves to the East. They have heard of Duke Ima before. Ld Ima enters the list.

Of Lady Ima Artizan is recomented to the Order of the Laurels and when called up all ten Ima Artizans stand up.

Ima Jerk rinohides all over his kingdom. Squire Ima Jerk moves to a new kingdom and is mistaken for plain old Ima Jerk. Every one is now looking at the new guy going "wow I heard hes some kinds scum bag." not a good start for Honourable Squire Ima Jerk.

Just trying to point out that there is some use to having a unique name.

Edward

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:45 am

MacTavish wrote:Might that not cause issues?

Did it cause issues if Duke William fitzJohn crossed paths with serjeant William fitzJohn in period?

The bigger problem I see in the SCA is the nonsensical way we use titles; in period there wouldn't have been a "Duke William fitzJohn," there would only have been a "William fitzJohn, Duke of _________", and it would have been the "Duke of_________" that was unique, not the "William fitzJohn" part.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:45 am

It seems to me that humans are capable of resolving those problems now, just as they were in the middle ages. There are plenty of Lord Edwards out there, using your name as an example, yet it's pretty easy to distinguish between them (Edward, Richard's squire; Edward the weaver; Edward the cook, et cetera).

Plenty of people don't use their full registered name in dailiy SCA activity anyway. I'm "Derian le Breton", but pretty much everyone just calls me "Derian." There are others out there with the same registered first name. I've even lived in the same Barony as one before, and there was rarely any confusion. Surely you know other "Edwards".

Furthermore, this is entirely optional. If you want your name to be Protected Forever, just don't send the letter in.

-Derian.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:51 am

I just didn't register a name; if someone else starts using the same one I'll add "of where ever I'm at", if they move *here*, I'll probably have to add "the elder" or get given a nickname.

Shoot back in the early 80's I remember "Big Siggy" and "Little Siggy" in Ansteorra; didn't seem to cause confusion or the downfall of western civilization!

Wilem the smith, OL, OST, OLM, OSO, OE, Ei, Ei, O

Haven't registered arms either!

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:08 pm

You'd probably just get them dirty anyway.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:55 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:The bigger problem I see in the SCA is the nonsensical way we use titles; in period there wouldn't have been a "Duke William fitzJohn," there would only have been a "William fitzJohn, Duke of _________", and it would have been the "Duke of_________" that was unique, not the "William fitzJohn" part.

I just recently had that discussion with someone who wanted their last name to be Essex, since that was clearly the last name of those "Robert" guys that were the Earls of Essex.

Kept trying to explain that yes, they were called "Essex" on occasion, but their family surname was not Essex...they were just being referred to by their title.

I think they sent the paperwork up anyway.

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:47 pm

I agree with the idea behind this, but I'm not confident the approach will create the change you want. Is the hope that so many people will allow changes that the college of heralds will make that the default? With such a large percentage of registered names belonging to non-active folks I don't think we'd even approach a quarter of the names being cleared for conflict.

Could we change the rules such that if you haven't gotten an award in 5 or maybe 10 years your name and device are automatically free game?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:57 pm

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Could we change the rules such that if you haven't gotten an award in 5 or maybe 10 years your name and device are automatically free game?

I dunno about that. I met a man this past summer at GNE, has been a member of the society since AS 2. He was JUST awarded an AoA this past summer at the aforementioned event.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:08 pm

Gaston: we can't even change the rules to make it such that names and devices are released when people die.

-Derian.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:20 pm

Think on this... Do you really want to see a small army of red armoured guys named "Nissan Maxima" comin at ya across a bridge??

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:27 pm

Angusm0628 wrote:Think on this... Do you really want to see a small army of red armoured guys named "Nissan Maxima" comin at ya across a bridge??

I think that would be a "fleet of rentals", wouldn't it?

I'll have to think on the blanket letter. I'm initially not opposed to it at all, but want to think before generating one. I suspect I'll be sending one in for both names.

As to the devices of the deceased and inactive...perhaps a certain period of inactivity of membership, or actual death, could just assume permission to conflict with a single CD. That'd give quite a bit of breathing room for folks.

Luca Sogliano · Post by **Luca Sogliano** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:40 pm

Just for the record, you can give "permission to conflict" to anyone, meaning that you can register your son as the same name you have.

Also, last I checked, the college of heralds has no enforcement division. So unless you're in one of those kingdoms that doesn't allow you to fight in crown unless you have registered name and arms, and you're going to be imminently fighting in that venue, I wouldn't worry about it.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:45 pm

Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:Just for the record, you can give "permission to conflict" to anyone, meaning that you can register your son as the same name you have.

As I understand it under current rules the two names cannot be identical.

Hence the campaign to end name uniqueness.

-Derian.

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:32 pm

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Could we change the rules such that if you haven't gotten an award in 5 or maybe 10 years your name and device are automatically free game?

I recieved my AOA 9 years ago, not an award since (I have not been real active for the past 2or 3 years) My name and arms are registered (and paid for). Is that fair to me?

Both the name and arms passed the Laurals the first time, because I spent the better part of 20 hours researching both. Again, is this fair to me?

If someone asks for permission to conflict, odds are I'll allow it (depending on where they are). But to take it away from me?

When I quit doing the SCA, I will release my name and arms.

If you are not going to play anymore, you SHOULD release them.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:45 pm

I recently sought to register my name and arms after all these years and got told that "Trystan of Anglesey" is already registered.

He even spelled it perfectly.

Magnus of Red Hammer · Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:39 pm

I would not be initially opposed to such an idea. I am with Saritor on this one. In the event that two names are identical, I would suggest that to avoid conflict would to add a footnote to the name, a blatant SCAdianism, that tells where Edward the Smith lives exactly within the Known World.

i.e. Edward the Smith lives in Drachenwald. He moves to the Middle Kingdom, somewhere in Michigan. Another Edward the Smith lives in southern Ohio, say South Oaken.

With that much distance, it is unlikely (not impossible) for the two to be confused unless they get a kingdom level award. Almost no chance of conflict if they gain awards at the local levels.

Now, Edward the Smith gets a better mundane job in the same South Oaken barony as Edward the Smith. This now poses great possibility for conflict. In all likelihood, the local populace would give them a nickname to separate them, much the same as I have been to separate myself from another Magnus.

I would not be offended in the least to look upon any scroll I might be given and see the award given to Maghnus the Younger (so long as the correctly spell Maghnus with an "h"). It's not my period name, but it is an adequate and acceptable substitute.

So "Edward the Smith", gets his first AoA at the same event that "Edward the Smith, formerly of Drachenvald" is given his first augmentation. They're not perfect, but it gives an out for identical names.

Wow, I just realized that was a bit more verbose than I had wanted... oh well.

Alric of Drentha · Post by **Alric of Drentha** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:22 pm

As someone who doesn't participate in the SCA, I've got to wonder... spelling was very free in the middle ages, and the same person would often spell his name many different ways throughout his lifetime. If someone has already registered the name you want, can't you just change the spelling? Or would that still be a conflict?

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:29 pm

Has to be a documentable spelling. I'm not really sure how much difference there has to be from any other name.

I really don't see this as very much of an issue. There are two Ingvarrs in the Phoenix area. I have more to my name than Ingvarr but nobody knows it, I would assume the same is true of him. In each of our respective circles, we are Ingvarr. Occasionally, there will be some cross pollination and a bit of confusion arises. When it does, it's really easy to say, "No, I'm a different Ingvarr." Surprisingly enough, people are able to grasp that concept. Almost like not everyone they have known their entire lives has had a unique name.

Magnus of Red Hammer · Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:17 pm

I once heard a tale of a group long ago with 5 Gareth's. I don't care who you are, that's a lot of Gareth's.

Bastior · Post by **Bastior** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:28 pm

As Ingvarr says there isn't a problem here, I used to be one of four or five Pete's working on a crew of between six and eight, depending on the demands of the occasion. Despite working around and across each other with serious current and heavy weights no problems and we only used nicknames half the time.

We're all used to juggeling multiple names for the same person and keeping a mental card index of who's who, it's all part and parcel of being sociable.

B

William of Otterton · Post by **William of Otterton** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:35 pm

I'd be happier if the names followed more in tune with *actual* naming practices than the apparent number of unique and/or overly complex names. A quick look at English names from 12C-14C, most men should have their names from a group out of about 10 names for about 80% of the population or something like that.

At a quick glance at the SCA O&A, there's only 176 "William of..." along with 116 "John of...", 105 "Richard of..." and a whopping 22 "Henry of..." as well. Granted, I'm not checking alternate spellings or non-English variants but I think it has more to do with a greater desire to have "unique" sounding names rather than something that is more factual and accurate that is one of the issues here.

Which is also why this current name is going to be released and a new name, that is much more historically correct (with matching persona!) will be unveiled as soon as I get the paperwork started. It took me a year to finalize what I wanted, a few weeks to get the rest of the canton comfortable with it and I'm still going to keep this name as a nickname for myself too (which will also be built into the back-story of the persona!)

JvR · Post by **JvR** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:20 pm

I like the LOTR and D&Dish names in the Armorial.

ursulageorges · Post by **ursulageorges** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:42 pm

Derian le Breton wrote:Gaston: we can't even change the rules to make it such that names and devices are released when people die.

But you can release your own name and device when you die, if you want to do so & plan ahead. It's called a Heraldic Will. (You can also will your name and/or device to somebody else.)

--Ursula Georges.

ursulageorges · Post by **ursulageorges** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:44 pm

Alric of Drentha wrote:As someone who doesn't participate in the SCA, I've got to wonder... spelling was very free in the middle ages, and the same person would often spell his name many different ways throughout his lifetime. If someone has already registered the name you want, can't you just change the spelling? Or would that still be a conflict?

The SCA requires difference in both pronunciation and spelling, and the differences have to be fairly substantial. For instance, under the current rules, Ronald Smith would conflict with Donald Smythe.

--Ursula Georges.

ursulageorges · Post by **ursulageorges** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:54 pm

Derian le Breton wrote:
Lucius Marius Scaevola wrote:Just for the record, you can give "permission to conflict" to anyone, meaning that you can register your son as the same name you have.

As I understand it under current rules the two names cannot be identical.

Correct!

Derian and I could grant permission to our hypothetical son to be Derianus le Breton. But we couldn't give him permission to be Derian le Breton.

--Ursula Georges.

ursulageorges · Post by **ursulageorges** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:13 pm

Gaston de Clermont wrote:I agree with the idea behind this, but I'm not confident the approach will create the change you want. Is the hope that so many people will allow changes that the college of heralds will make that the default?

To start with, the hope is that enough people will grant blanket permissions to conflict that this becomes a standard issue discussed when you're submitting a name, maybe a section of the name form.

But a big part of the campaign is just an attempt to find out what folks who aren't heralds think. Right now, the College of Heralds figures that 99.9% of the Society thinks name uniqueness is somewhere between "awesome" and "just fine", and that only the hard core name heralds who spend all of their time obsessing over authentic names have a problem with the rules as they stand.

My personal observation has been that the split is much more even. Some people really like having a unique name & want to preserve the SCA tradition, but just as many people think it's silly to waste time trying to identify unique names when names weren't unique in the Middle Ages.

--Ursula Georges.

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:59 pm

I'm all for anything that makes heraldry less of a pain in the butt

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:20 am

ursulageorges wrote:
Derian le Breton wrote:Gaston: we can't even change the rules to make it such that names and devices are released when people die.

But you can release your own name and device when you die, if you want to do so & plan ahead. It's called a Heraldic Will. (You can also will your name and/or device to somebody else.)

You can do it, but I suspect the number of people with Heraldic Wills is extremely low.

-Derian.

CiaranBlackrune · Post by **CiaranBlackrune** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:01 am

AriAnson wrote:I'm all for anything that makes heraldry less of a pain in the butt

Hear hear!!!

I am still waiting to hear back if my name and device passed. I hope so because I really don't want to go through that again, picking a device.

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:34 am

JvR wrote:I like the LOTR and D&Dish names in the Armorial.

Don't get any ideas. Those names are from earlier days when the rules were less stringent. People who have such names can keep 'em but the rule allowing names from Tolkien and the like was rescinded years ago.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:46 am

CiaranBlackrune wrote:
AriAnson wrote:I'm all for anything that makes heraldry less of a pain in the butt

Hear hear!!!

I am still waiting to hear back if my name and device passed. I hope so because I really don't want to go through that again, picking a device.

I second that!

I talked with a Herald 2 years ago about submitting my name and device.

Never heard anything back, and I am 99% sure he never actually submitted it.

So on a side note... any East Kingdom Heralds in here want to help me submit my name???

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:12 pm

Did you give them a check? Was it cashed?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:15 pm

Saritor wrote:Did you give them a check? Was it cashed?

He said he would contact me when he needed the check.
I haven't heard from him in 2 years.

And people I talk to about it say "Don't press him, it only makes him cranky"

He's a nice guy in all, but I don't find him very useful as a Herald

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:50 pm

I've never registered my name or device. That may make me a bad person and a horrible peer but I just don't think it is necessary. In 15 years I've only seen one device similar to mine, (surprising since it is so simple) and it was in blue so no confusion I could see. If someone registered the exact same device as mine it would be my task to add some distinguishment to mine since they have "the law" on their side.

As for names, there should not be exclusivity except where locality is concerned and that should be a self correcting problem (conditions may be subject to change in Calontir

) It's rare that a newcomer is not steered away from famous names in the kingdom (who wants to be "Little So-and-So" forever) As already noted more common names like William or Thomas are almost always distinguished by a locality or describer just like back in the day.

This is not a snub to the heralds who perform a valuable service to our society, I just think there is a bit of tail wagging the dog when it comes to our naming and heraldry practices.

So yeah, I support your movement and I'd send in a letter if I had a name to give permission to use.

-Justus