West Coast Armoury Final Update.

[sha-ul]

So many whom have achieved much fell into debt and bankruptcy. Abe Lincoln took 17 years to pay off friends and family after his business failed and he went bankrupt.

Tell ya what, Sparky.. You go and abolish slavery for us, and we'll work on forgiveness.

As for the separation of Game and Life...

You used the Game, to make money in Life. You owe people because of this. This makes removal impossible. Every time somebody puts on their armor, they think of you not fulfilling your end. Why should you be immune to the same reminders?

Maybe he could do one better, rid the nation of the scourge known as homeowners' associations.

[Neria Discordia Scythia]

ok... thats enough

the man has said his peace. if you got "burned" and he owes you, then we can only see if he will do as stated. I'm not really going to go into the whole buisness/ SCA/ honor/ word aspect of this... but he came out and said his piece, said more han he needed to about his situation and thats that.
DO you honstly think that chiding and insulting someone will motivate them in any way to try harder to get your money back? I have an armourer brother who hasent seen a check in 5+months, and only asked his friends for help due to his daughters, not for himself.
Tell me you dont know someone who has had a bad turn of luck in the last year. I know if your out hundreds right now your mad, but tell me you've never been behind on something?
I myself just started an armoury, and all my passion at making armour now is coupled by deadlines, quality checks, dealing with custom orders... and trial and error trying new stuff to please customers. Yes, I chose to throw my hat in the ring, and I put my name and reptation out there on the line to make good armour at a good price in a reasonable amount of time. Right now I consider myself behind, I usually quote 4 weeks, and one project had turned into 6+ weeks. My full time job as a teacher took a ton of new time because our school became unaccredited...now were having to do twice the work to prove everything were doing. I keep in touch with the people, give discounts where I feel I've gone way over the time, and just tell some people NO, since I'm 5 projects deep.
I myself got burned on the money aspect. I went the first 4 months without hardly anything coming in, and I had to look shame faced at my supportive wife, and I almost quit and went back to my other side jobs, but she told me to stick it out and we tightened the belts and kept at it. I'm still not making what I would like, but I'm doing what I love and making enough to make ends meet.
I honestly dont know how any fulltime armourer can make it money wise. I used to make orders, no money down, and would not take money until they were happy with it. But, after a few himming and hawwing on payment I finally had to ask for 1/2 down on true custom orders. weeds out the non serious buyers.
I'm not excusing Brand, I'm saying you've had your say...now let it be....time will either tell or heal this situation.

Do you understand that if he owes anyone a few thousand dollars worth of work, and someone presses it legally, that this is a FELONEY? The real world treats people who abscond with a few thousand dollars pretty harshly.

The time for niceties is over. The actions of this slimy toad makes him deserve every ill word he gets. I'm sure if you were 1400 bux less and treated like garbage you would have nothing nice to say.
if you think we are being assholes, try looking back in post histories the slow decline from curious, to concerned, to annoyed and finally wanting blood.
Please do not add opinions into a situation you know nothing about

[Munz]

There are lots of lessons to be learned here.

This shows that turning your hobby into a business can have dramatic consequences.

People - don't pay for stuff in full! Especially from someone who has had their business fold up in the past.

Do your research! Buy from responsible merchants/artists.

Don't take advantage of someone's hobby/game (ie SCA, Adria, etc.) to make money, then turn around and degrade it as fantasy while claiming it's the real world that matters. It is a BS excuse, especially if you still participate at some level in said fantasy game.

While the SCA may not be "real", the law is. You are responsible for filling orders or refunding money. Filing bankruptcy has its consequences. Even if the buyer only gets a small percentage of his original investment, there are long term financial penalties placed on the person filing for protection.

Finally, in the internet age and with boards such as these your public face as a business entity is much more important. People have a faster and more direct route to vent their anger and frustration over poor business practices than ever before. If you are going to engage this form of commerce be prepared to deliver the goods or get burned.

Now back to your regularly scheduled rants...

[chef de chambre]

I tried the armoring thing fr a while. It is extremely difficult to make it function as a standalone business and I got out of that after only a few months. I wasn't willing to take peoples money for projects I had no time to dedicate to them and while I had some success it was feast or famine. There was no middle ground. I respect the guys who can keep it going and can make itwork. It is a huge effort to do that especially if you are attempting it alone.

I am sad to see that this problem has happened. It is a risk every person takes when trying to start a business out of a social hobby like the SCA. I was lucky and saw the shortcomings of a business like that and the potential for mass destruction both in my feelings about myself and the effects it could have on the social environment. I hope Brand is able to make peace with it and will be able to afford to rectify the situation.

Dante if he owes you money or armor I can understand your bitterness. If not I request that you not add to the turmoil because it helps nobody.
Rise above the temptation to be negative and just leave the situation alone.

You need to enter the real world Johno.

Lets say you had a sister, and she hired a contractor to fix her roof, for $2000. The contractor takes her money, and never fixes her roof, and if she calls up the contractor to ask when it will be fixed, he starts getting defensive, ignores her, or is just plain rude, or if she complains about it after a year or twos time, he writes a scathing publicc letter, possibly threatening her, and puts it up on an internet board, or has it printed in the local paper - How would you feel?

How would you like it if someone told her "It's sad, and unfortunate, but just move along. It is only a partime job, deriving from his fixit hobby, and the poor guy means well and doesn't need the grief". How would you like that?

Or would you be calling the Attorney Generals office, or the better business bureau, and be seeking a legal remedy?

Seriously, if someone takes a few thousand dollars, through the mail, and never delivers the product, in essence stealing the money, that is a Federal crime, prosecutable by law.

Real world consequences exist for real world actions - nobody in the judicial system is going to give a rats ass if you are an SCA peer, or give you a break for it.

[Broadway]

Adding to what Chef is saying, not replying to it:

And this is the at least the second time this whole cycle has repeated itself.

How long you figure before folks get tired of bitching, just give up on their money, and shut up, out of frustration of being told, "Hey, ok, you've said your peace, now hush up about it already," ?

Because add one or two years to that date, and thats when Brand will start his third armoury.

And, you might see a guy on a forum somewhere say something akin to:

"What the hell!? This guy hasn't finished paying off the last round of folks! Who's to say he won't do it again!? Don't give him your money!"

Followed by a round of folks saying:

"Hey! STFU! Don't beat the guy down! He's trying to get his life back together!"

How long you figure?

I tried the armoring thing fr a while. It is extremely difficult to make it function as a standalone business and I got out of that after only a few months. I wasn't willing to take peoples money for projects I had no time to dedicate to them and while I had some success it was feast or famine. There was no middle ground. I respect the guys who can keep it going and can make itwork. It is a huge effort to do that especially if you are attempting it alone.

I am sad to see that this problem has happened. It is a risk every person takes when trying to start a business out of a social hobby like the SCA. I was lucky and saw the shortcomings of a business like that and the potential for mass destruction both in my feelings about myself and the effects it could have on the social environment. I hope Brand is able to make peace with it and will be able to afford to rectify the situation.

Dante if he owes you money or armor I can understand your bitterness. If not I request that you not add to the turmoil because it helps nobody.
Rise above the temptation to be negative and just leave the situation alone.

You need to enter the real world Johno.

Lets say you had a sister, and she hired a contractor to fix her roof, for $2000. The contractor takes her money, and never fixes her roof, and if she calls up the contractor to ask when it will be fixed, he starts getting defensive, ignores her, or is just plain rude, or if she complains about it after a year or twos time, he writes a scathing publicc letter, possibly threatening her, and puts it up on an internet board, or has it printed in the local paper - How would you feel?

How would you like it if someone told her "It's sad, and unfortunate, but just move along. It is only a partime job, deriving from his fixit hobby, and the poor guy means well and doesn't need the grief". How would you like that?

Or would you be calling the Attorney Generals office, or the better business bureau, and be seeking a legal remedy?

Seriously, if someone takes a few thousand dollars, through the mail, and never delivers the product, in essence stealing the money, that is a Federal crime, prosecutable by law.

Real world consequences exist for real world actions - nobody in the judicial system is going to give a rats ass if you are an SCA peer, or give you a break for it.

[Count Johnathan]

You need to enter the real world Johno.

Lets say you had a sister, and she hired a contractor to fix her roof, for $2000. The contractor takes her money, and never fixes her roof, and if she calls up the contractor to ask when it will be fixed, he starts getting defensive, ignores her, or is just plain rude, or if she complains about it after a year or twos time, he writes a scathing publicc letter, possibly threatening her, and puts it up on an internet board, or has it printed in the local paper - How would you feel?

How would you like it if someone told her "It's sad, and unfortunate, but just move along. It is only a partime job, deriving from his fixit hobby, and the poor guy means well and doesn't need the grief". How would you like that?

Or would you be calling the Attorney Generals office, or the better business bureau, and be seeking a legal remedy?

Seriously, if someone takes a few thousand dollars, through the mail, and never delivers the product, in essence stealing the money, that is a Federal crime, prosecutable by law.

Real world consequences exist for real world actions - nobody in the judicial system is going to give a rats ass if you are an SCA peer, or give you a break for it.

Chef don't be a douche. I am angry to see people who got screwed. That sucks. All I was saying is that bitching about it here isn't going to make magic money or armor appear. If people have such great issue with it they can do one of three things. Press charges, send an email and hope, or shut up and remember this lesson.

That's the real world. Why you have to insult me I do not understand.

[Johann ColdIron]

Sadly this guy is correct. I vote this be put into the FIRST post within the sticky "NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED" thread.

"Do not pay up front in full. It strips all motivation from the fabricator to do the work. If anyone asks for advance payment in full, walk away, no matter how good their previously made product is."

If you agree then say so so the moderator of this board will get on it.

You have my leave to place anywhere it can be used for good

[Munz]

Dante makes a good point about this being the second time around.

It is my opinion that the those who DO have a financial stake in this get together and take it off of the net and into court for arbitration. While I feel it is sad to see things this go this far, these customers deserve some sort of resolution and just I don't think that Brand has the determination to repay these debts without some real motivation (ie. a court order).

In the end it might be better for all involved. Brand will be able to halt the downward slide of his reputation (or what's left of it). Those 26 customers will receive some sort of compensation that they know will show up without having to rely on Brand's "word". And it might set a good precedent to keep other businesses from going down the same path.

There are no two ways about it. This will continue to be a painful process until a REAL settlement takes place. I have to say if I was in Brand's place I would take some sort of legally binding action before the authorities show up on my doorstep asking questions with the word "fraud" attached. It's just a matter of time...

[chef de chambre]

You need to enter the real world Johno.

Lets say you had a sister, and she hired a contractor to fix her roof, for $2000. The contractor takes her money, and never fixes her roof, and if she calls up the contractor to ask when it will be fixed, he starts getting defensive, ignores her, or is just plain rude, or if she complains about it after a year or twos time, he writes a scathing publicc letter, possibly threatening her, and puts it up on an internet board, or has it printed in the local paper - How would you feel?

How would you like it if someone told her "It's sad, and unfortunate, but just move along. It is only a partime job, deriving from his fixit hobby, and the poor guy means well and doesn't need the grief". How would you like that?

Or would you be calling the Attorney Generals office, or the better business bureau, and be seeking a legal remedy?

Seriously, if someone takes a few thousand dollars, through the mail, and never delivers the product, in essence stealing the money, that is a Federal crime, prosecutable by law.

Real world consequences exist for real world actions - nobody in the judicial system is going to give a rats ass if you are an SCA peer, or give you a break for it.

Chef don't be a douche. I am angry to see people who got screwed. That sucks. All I was saying is that bitching about it here isn't going to make magic money or armor appear. If people have such great issue with it they can do one of three things. Press charges, send an email and hope, or shut up and remember this lesson.

That's the real world. Why you have to insult me I do not understand.

I'm not insulting you, I'm saying you need to enter the real world, because you *previously* write as if you are viewing it through SCA rose-coloured glasses.

What anyone owed that much money has to do, if it is a half year or more beyond promised delivery, is to write him politely, reminding him of when how much money was paid, and how overdue their item is, and ask for a refund in full, by X date. State politely but clearly, that if no attempt is made to repay the money, you are going to go through the Feds to press charges of mail fraud (if they mailed him checks, postal money orders, or money orders)

If they paid by mail, and no remedy is forthcoming go to the Postmaster of their town they mailed it from, bring your recipts, and you correspondance, and begin the process of filing for mail fraud.

[Count Johnathan]

Not rose colored glasses chef. Its insulting that you thought I was in some fantasy land about reality. I said it it easy for someone to make a big mess when they try to make a business out of a hobby like the SCA. I also said that I hope he is able to rectify the situation because it sucks totally for everybody involved.

We agree about what needs to be done about it. Either take action or learn from this painful lesson. That's about it. Bitching here will solve nothing.

[Chris Gilman]

Brian Price did this same thing. It is an old story and at least Brand has come forward and said he would try to make amends. That is more than Brian did and Brian is treated here as the god of armoring knowledge. Brian was brought up by Caid, no one would take a stand against him. Then Brian moved to the West. He was investigated in the West (like 15 years ago) for the same thing and managed to convince everyone he was the victim, even when I had written statements from 4 individuals (from his Caid dealings) that had paid Brian in excess of $22,000 in deposits and never heard a word from him. (One person who I still see on occasion, told me last week that he had kissed his $8,000 goodbye because he never heard a word from Brian and was surprised when I told him I had seen Brian at Pennsic, because this guy had been told Brian had died)
The SCA (or SCA people who investigated Brian) said it was a mundane matter and outside the SCA’s jurisdiction. So, be thankful Brand has come forward and said he would try to get money refunded and you know where he is. If he doesn’t, then pursue it mundanely, until then unbunch your panties because bitching about it here isn’t going make him want (or able) to pay you any sooner.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Yeah, old Brian has made alot of people insanely angry.

[Agnarr]

I am canceling my order from Brian Price. Thanks for the heads up.

[sha-ul]

Brian Price did this same thing. It is an old story and at least Brand has come forward and said he would try to make amends. That is more than Brian did and Brian is treated here as the god of armoring knowledge. Brian was brought up by Caid, no one would take a stand against him. Then Brian moved to the West. He was investigated in the West (like 15 years ago) for the same thing and managed to convince everyone he was the victim, even when I had written statements from 4 individuals (from his Caid dealings) that had paid Brian in excess of $22,000 in deposits and never heard a word from him. (One person who I still see on occasion, told me last week that he had kissed his $8,000 goodbye because he never heard a word from Brian and was surprised when I told him I had seen Brian at Pennsic, because this guy had been told Brian had died)
The SCA (or SCA people who investigated Brian) said it was a mundane matter and outside the SCA’s jurisdiction. So, be thankful Brand has come forward and said he would try to get money refunded and you know where he is. If he doesn’t, then pursue it mundanely, until then unbunch your panties because bitching about it here isn’t going make him want (or able) to pay you any sooner.

Wow In My time here, this is the first I have ever heard of this.

[Luca Sogliano]

Could these allegations against Brian be repeated, or I pointed towards a thread where they are discussed? I would like to know more, please.

[shinyhalo]

Brian Price, along with his picture should be put in the Newbie FAQ sticky too.

I googled him and he seems to be doing great! No doubt thanks to everyone's cash donations. He's a respected expert in medieval shit and an author.

[Joseph]

How many people on this thread are owed by Brand?
Of the people who posted, how many are going to follow Chef's route and press charges or Dante's route and continue to E-beef til the cows come home?
I've heard of armourers that basically pulled houdinis or such and have still a ton of people asking about their work.
I don't see why Brand gets the shit end of it except that he was dumb enough to clear his conscience and show his misfortune publicly. Had he never posted and disappeared I wonder if there would be such a mob forming against him.
Its obvious that Brand is done with but how does he get nasty ill words and threats and others are able to reappear and take $ again and again.
For the record I was ready to order gauntlets from Brand and when I asked around it seemed like it wasn't a good situation for me to put my money I balked and went elsewhere.
Not to say that its your own fault, but plenty of people knew Brand had issues and still gave him $.

[Leo Medii]

Could these allegations against Brian be repeated, or I pointed towards a thread where they are discussed? I would like to know more, please.

Brian is still on my order for finger gauntlets that I put a deposit down on Friday, October 12, 2001 at 8:39 AM. I am still waiting to pay in full on them on thier completion. I have since had seven other pairs of gauntlets.

[Sasha_Khan]

... involving my two closest friends and household members - Mistress Cristobal degli Glicini che Mangia Uome and her husband, Eadmond du Battlemont - who had contracted a suit of transitional armor with a local armorer.

The armour was to go with a Kirby bascinet (Cristobal is Laurie Wise's sister, btw), and was to be made by a local armorer (now deceased) who in payment was to receive a big pile of tools that Eadmond was no longer using (including a B-3 shear, full gas-welding setup, a really nice old drillpress, hammers, a nice old german anvil, and a ball stake made from a tank trailer hitch...).

The armour was to be ready for the 30 Year celebration, as Eadmond wanted to have a 'last hurrah' and then retire the complete armour to a display stand in his office.

A few years came and went, and plenty of armour was made for OTHER customers with the tools.

3YC came and went, without armour, and without Eadmond taking the field a last time.

The armorer had come to some interesting life decisions - including deciding that he was a woman trapped in a man's body. Not a biggie - the armorer kept up the hobby business even after the gender reassignment surgery, doing a fair amount of trade.

Eight years after the beginning of the transaction, and FIVE YEARS PAST the agreed-upon delivery date, Cristobal asked after the harness (in a non-nasty way, I would add) and was surprised to receive this response:

I won't be delivering the suit. I made that agreement WHEN I WAS A MAN, and now that I am a woman, I'm not obligated to fulfill the contract

Let me tell you, I was NEVER so happy to be an innocent bystander.

Since this interchange happened during one of our local wars, the decision was made to visit the camp of the armorer's warband, and enlist the senior membership of the group in arbitration.

After coming to an very tense (and unhappy for some) resolution, we visited the shop a few days later, and repossesed ALL of the tools that were part of the trade-that-wasn't.

And the lesson is: changing your gender doesn't get you out of contracts, boys and girls...

[CiaranBlackrune]

And the lesson is: changing your gender doesn't get you out of contracts, boys and girls...

Brand would not make an attractive woman. Though it would be interesting as he could be the first person to be both king AND queen by right of arms.

(Sorry for the derail...)

[Richard Blackmoore]

Brian Price did this same thing. It is an old story and at least Brand has come forward and said he would try to make amends. That is more than Brian did and Brian is treated here as the god of armoring knowledge. Brian was brought up by Caid, no one would take a stand against him. Then Brian moved to the West. He was investigated in the West (like 15 years ago) for the same thing and managed to convince everyone he was the victim, even when I had written statements from 4 individuals (from his Caid dealings) that had paid Brian in excess of $22,000 in deposits and never heard a word from him. (One person who I still see on occasion, told me last week that he had kissed his $8,000 goodbye because he never heard a word from Brian and was surprised when I told him I had seen Brian at Pennsic, because this guy had been told Brian had died)
The SCA (or SCA people who investigated Brian) said it was a mundane matter and outside the SCA’s jurisdiction. So, be thankful Brand has come forward and said he would try to get money refunded and you know where he is. If he doesn’t, then pursue it mundanely, until then unbunch your panties because bitching about it here isn’t going make him want (or able) to pay you any sooner.

Hi Chris.

A very, very long time ago (late 1980's?) I ordered swords and other items from Brian when Thornbird Arms was the company. I never got the swords. I got a helm (late) that did not fit,that he did replace with one that did, some other items were issues as well. Also some items I was quite happy with. But eventually he still owed me the swords and I forget what else. And back then the deposits I paid were a lot of money to me, even if it was not a substantial sum to others.

And suddenly I could not reach Brian, get answers, get my money back etc. I got a couple of different stories about what happened, some from Brian, some from others. Including that one of his partners had run off with some of his armour and/or equipment IIRC. But being on the East Coast, I could not really get to Brian to do much about it.

This dragged on for a long time, to the point where I literally wanted to kill Brian. And I was at Pennsic may years ago, explaining to someone why they should not order from Brian and a knight from out west heard my explanation. I explained I planned to beat the crap out of Brian the next time I saw him and could get my hands on him offsite so as not to drag the SCA into this mess. I did not expect to get the money back.

Then his sister (who is a real sweetheart) told me she was not defending Brian at all. But the reason he was not around at that time, was that he was ill with cancer. Sigh...

So I let it go.

The next time I saw Brian, was at another Pennsic. Without me asking, he sought me out, handed me a check and apologized, making zero excuses.

That was a very long time ago and I did not do business with him for quite some time and warned people who asked me for advice, about my bad experiences, but also said that he eventually made good on it and apologized. I tried to be honest and objective. I estimate that at least $150,000 in armour commissions went to other armourers as a result of me warning people off way back when.

Eventually I was told that Brian had fully recovered from cancer, had worked hard to turn his life around (after a lot of your friends and customers' call you a liar and a cheat, I guess that is a motivator) and that I should look at the publications he was working on. At first I did not want to hear it, I did not plan on ever sending him money no matter what.

Then I saw the books. Wow. Some really good stuff there. Not all of it perfect, but eventually he was publishing or reselling really useful stuff, at good prices. Not every book was perfect, but there was some really, really good stuff there. So I started picking up a book here and there.

In more recent years (21st century ) I've bought quite a number of items from Brian's companies. At first I was leary and only bought things he said he had in stock (nothing custom), one at a time and I paid with a credit card not cash if I was not getting the items in person as I handed over the cash, in case of a problem such as non-delivery.

Since my initial positive experinces with the new, reformed, responsible Brian, I've literally bought thousands of dollars worth of books, belts, castings, shoes, WMA rubber weapons, pivot rivets for visors, miscellaneous armour related castings & other items, etc.

And frankly I've been very happy with 95% of what I received. He's been very honest and open about which things are high end, which things are munitions and what is in between, which things are mass produced overseas and which are custom. On the 5% where I had the slightest complaints or issues, he took the items back promptly without any argument and either refunded money or provided a replacement item (some of this was sizing, not actually a problem with manufacturing, I'm hard to fit).

This was all through Revival and/or Chivalry Bookshelf. And many of my friends have bought items from him on my recommendation and been very satisfied.

I saw Brian at both Gulf Wars & Pennsic this year, bought items from him and recommended others do the same (mainly the books and translations/facsimilies, medieval style boots, castings, some other items as well).

I'm not trying to defend the things Brian did many years ago, whether they were his fault or in some cases the fault of his business partners. He had definitely screwed me over and others reported the same problems. I was one of his major detractors, literally wanting to strangle him.

But I must say that for at least the last 6 to 8 years roughly where I've been buying things from him again, I've been very pleased with his products and service. He's been fun to be around, helpful, worked with me to ensure that I was satisfied with the products purchased.

As far as I can tell, he has become a responsible business man. I was also under the impression that he had paid off all of his debts to other customers from Thornbird arms (perhaps I'm not correct on that).

Now I have not been ordering custom armor from him, that is true, but I simply have not had anything to complain about. On the contrary, he's been a pleasure to deal with and orders I and others have placed have been filled properly and usually in a timely fashion.

And I love the 14th century style shoes/boots for fighting (yes, I know they are not totally accurate, but they work great) and the 15th century riding boots. Also the books, especially In Service Of the Duke and some of the others are terrific, even frankly affordable considering what they are.

Chris, if you would send me the names & contact information for anyone who placed an order with Brian and did not receive their products or refunds, I will be happy to pass them on to Brian and inquire about them. I would hope that he would make good on any legitimate claims, as I thought he had already done that. If not, then I certainly won't be defending him on this forum. But I have to be frank, he's certainly made things right with me and been reliable for quite some time, at least with my friends.

James Peck/Richard Blackmoore

P.S. It was great to see you at Pennsic. My wife and I were impressed (as always) by the quality of your work and the beauty of the pieces overall. Stunning stuff. I must win lotto so I can buy some of it!

[Richard Blackmoore]

Could these allegations against Brian be repeated, or I pointed towards a thread where they are discussed? I would like to know more, please.

Brian is still on my order for finger gauntlets that I put a deposit down on Friday, October 12, 2001 at 8:39 AM. I am still waiting to pay in full on them on thier completion. I have since had seven other pairs of gauntlets.

Leo, could you send me the details and I will contact Brian for you and see if I can help to get your order resolved (or your deposit back if you prefer)?

Richard Blackmoore

[Eirik]

Thank you for that, Richard Blackmoore. It is very refreshing to hear something positive!

[Leo Medii]

Could these allegations against Brian be repeated, or I pointed towards a thread where they are discussed? I would like to know more, please.

Brian is still on my order for finger gauntlets that I put a deposit down on Friday, October 12, 2001 at 8:39 AM. I am still waiting to pay in full on them on thier completion. I have since had seven other pairs of gauntlets.

Leo, could you send me the details and I will contact Brian for you and see if I can help to get your order resolved (or your deposit back if you prefer)?

Richard Blackmoore

Richard, your post is EXACTLY how I felt about it, and when I heard the background, I too let it ride. A $250 deposit is NOTHING compared to worrying about your life on the line. I know Brian and like him, and know he will make them when he can, and I'll pay him the other 800$. Heck, he might not even remember them because of all the stuff going on back then!
But, I can send it to you if you think it might get his mind jogged into making them!

Thanks Brother!

[Leo Medii]

For the record, I buy a TON of stuff from Brian's shop, and the items and service now a days are awesome. Been a regular shopper of his Revival stuff for about 4 years+ now and have had nothing but positive results.

[Ideval]

I know that many others have not received armour from The Hammered Wombat, but I did eventually receive my helmet. It took years. From what I could tell, Steve Belden's psychiatric issues were legitimate, regardless of his business acumen.

[Chris Gilman]

Richard,
That is nice to hear Brian has turned around, at least as far as his dealings with you. The main point of my post was this has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. It was also to illustrate how even when someone repeatedly does something like this, it is often not pursued in a way that brings a resolution. It seems more often, the guilty party “falls off the radarâ€

[Moog]

For people who paid with paypal, they can take legal action through paypal and get refunds. I dont know the system but i know its an option.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Two of my favorite SCA people are Brian Price and Alan Bauldree. I mean I love these guys like they are family. Neither one of these guys have *ever* done me dirty in a deal. In fact, I owe Brian two poleaxes from like four years ago. I still haven't got the axe head patterns to By My Hand Designs so that I can make these for him.

I only see him at Pennsic, so I never even think about it. About a year ago he wanted to buy a custom shield and I was gonna throw in a custom ballock dagger and scabbard set to pay him back for the axe heads he gave me years ago. I don't really like the Mandrake axe heads very much, so I figured that would be more than fair.

He never sent the money for the shield. I arranged for somebody to get a dagger scabbard in his colors to him at Pennsic, but I don't know if he got the scabbard or not. I don't bother trying to contact him in any way because he's so busy with a million things. I don't have a problem with walking into his tent and buying stuff, but I don't try to talk to any of the big 14th Century Mafia merchants at Pennsic anymore. I'll never go to the Anshelm booth ever again- if I want a item he has I'll send one of my squires. Hell, I won't even attempt to speak to Luther again.

I don't dislike any of the major armourers or merchants, but to be perfectly frank I have found them to be exactly like many famous people in the underground music and art scene. They are so preoccupied with their next creation/project that they are hard to speak to in any meaningful way. I had the exact same problem when I was talking to Henry Rollins, the guys in Husker Du, the Meat Puppets, Glenn Danzig, the guys from Minor Threat or anyone who was a member of a major band in the scene I was involved in. They were, almost to a man, total raving dickheads. It took me a loooonnngg time to figure out why. I would say that Roderick from Mandrake is the only major merchant who I can hang out with, be a total raving idiot with and he will *never* make me feel like I'm somehow getting in the way.

I have found many accomplished SCA people to be the exact same type of person as any other type of hardcore artist- they are Visionaries. Literally, they have a vision in their heads that will not let them alone until they make that vision come to pass. This can make them very, very irritating to speak to. I am also one of those people- especially if I am being haunted by a vision. This vision can be a deed of arms, an artwork that is gestating in my head or some other creative project that I am planning. If I completely surrender to this creative process I can be a total raving asshole, because I can't snap out of it long enough to even answer questions. My wife has tried very, very hard to keep my head from being "lost up my ass" because I can't really be bothered with regular, everyday stuff when I'm deeply in the Zone. I will forget to eat, bathe or brush my teeth. I can't remember what day it is, and I will have to think to remember what month it is. I call this situation having "Visionary Head."

Now, that being said, some of these guys can get even more carried away, and get so far into a plan or idea that they will simply REFUSE TO BE bothered by anyone's needs or complaints about ANYTHING. They will take your money and be INCAPABLE of going back and concentrating on actually doing what they promised you they would do. I now have the ability to tackle stuff in the order that I agreed to do it in, as long as I'm not waiting for certain supplies or because I have been tapped out money-wise because of a disasterous setback.

It is perfectly reasonable for guys like this to believe -TRULY believe- that they can be a solid businessman while still retaining Visionary Head. They honestly don't plan to rip off anyone, but if they can't pull themselves away from their current obsession(s) they will simply refuse to deal with past obligations. I've seen it happen a million times. They start buying guns or develop some other hobby and then it's SCREW ARMOURING. The worst of these guys never even leave our hobby- they are just wrapped up into some new thing they want to do. These guys are capable of incredible Eric Cartman-like "mental gymnastics."


http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/220762

The point is this- if their heads are so unreachably up there own asses and they are so egotistical and twisted that they DON'T GIVE A SHIT if other people are upset by their actions, then they need to be called on their bullshit. They need to be chastised publicly, they need to have legal actions brought against them and if they are SCA peers...they NEED TO BE STRIPPED of their honors for being so goddamned self-centered and a-holish.

Brian Price and Alan Bauldree have never ripped me off, but I know exactly how to deal with them. I would never order armour from Brian because he doesn't have time to make it, and because there are alot of people in line in front of me. If I needed Alan to make something for me I would go to his house and sit there until he finished the stuff, and then I would pay him. I felt really bad about this because I should have been there trying to force him to finish his backlog first, but it is so long that he can't even remember what he owes to whom. But I KNEW FOR SURE that he was thinking about the next thing even when he was hammering the piece directly in front of him!!!

Alan owes my squire a $10,000 harness! I love the guy like a brother but I know he is incapable of doing what he promised to do. Even if I went down there and beat him to death it wouldn't do us any good- he is always in the unshakable grip of the next thing. Giving these people money is a big mistake, but they will often rip dozens of people off before people realize that they not only DON'T give a damn about other people's feelings.....THEY CAN'T CARE. They don't know how.

They are utterly ruled by the things they want. They are obsessed with planning their next move....they CANNOT GO BACK.

Many artists are this way. My wife, the other KSCA and this website FORCE me to not drift into that state of just not giving a flying fu*k what other people think or feel. It's not that all artists are psychopaths (some are)...it's just that they are completely ruled by their creative impulses. These people can be nice, occasionally reliable, and will do the right thing if you force them to.

The worst of these people stop caring about your feelings the moment you give them a hard time about their bullshit.

[Tibbie Croser]

Sir Vitus, that was brilliant and explains a great deal.

It's unfortunate that these great armor artists even try to be businesspeople. In another field, they would develop patterns and designs and then license them to practical people who would take orders and carry out the work.

Great craftsmen and artists of history had journeymen and apprentices working for them who carried out the less artistic tasks.

[mattmaus]

They are utterly ruled by the things they want. They are obsessed with planning their next move....they CANNOT GO BACK.

That's a very broad brush you have there.

I'm not going to disagree with you though, except to say that it may not always be a case of not caring, nor not being capable of caring.

But the caring doesn't help.

What happens is, theres a project that needs done. It has no voice, no muse, no inspiration other than someone else wanted it, and the artisan needed money for it.

There's another project that is singing loudly, and begging to be done.

There's an artisan who is then torn between doing what they SHOULD do, and what they WANT to do. There is a great deal of time spent wandering back and forth between projects, justifying not working on the should, and not working on the want. The artisan gets dick all done, and spends most of the day mentaly curled up in the fetal position inside their head weeping over the stress caused by the internal conflict.

Neither project works out, and that drives the artist deeper into the self.

That CAN certainly evolve into not caring, because after months of beating the hell out of themselves over a simple thing, it's hard for the artisan to face that thing again, and by far easier to pretend it never happened.

Bugging the artisan about it deffinitely doesn't help. Those e-mails always hit about the time they're trying to crawl back out of the depression, and it sends them spiraling right back down.

I have experienced this myself, and recognized it, and swore that I would never take money till I had shit in a box ready to mail for just that reason. By his own description, and that of others I expect that Wombat suffered from similar.

Some people manufacture armor. It doesn't matter how elaborate and fancy and decorated it is. If something fucks up, well you do what you gotta to get it done.

Some people make ART. It doesn't matter how simple, or easy or plain it is. It has their very heart and soul poured into it and when the art is hurt, by extension so are they.

[ruthardus]

I myself am an art teacher. I love the creation process. I have countless times found myself starting 2 or 3 things at once just to get my creative juices going on an exciting new project. And, I can understand what you say... I am a horrible buisness person. I believe in customer service, and working with new ideas and making one of a kind armour projects. But, I am smart in that I have my accountant like wife handle all the finances and shipping and billing and such. she likes that.. all the number crunching. she has a hard issue with "SCA" time and "SCA" time of getting around to paying.
UNderstand... even though I'm looking at a project on the shelf I started, and may be working on another newer exciting project right now... AT NO TIME DOES MY MIND LET ME REST ON MY OBLIGATIONS. IT EATS AT ME UNTIL I GET THE PROJECT DONE... DONE RIGHT...AND MAKE THE PERSON HAPPY. I sometimes feel ashamed at how long some things turned out to take... but many of these endevors are into new terrirory, and it's a learning process... which is also reflected in the lower than usual prices on new things we try. The stuff I feel I have well under hand moves quick and quality keeps going up... so also does the prices.
I sometimes wonder how some people get through the monotony of making 10 of the same thing. sucks the passion right out of me. I have a nearly uncontrolable desire to "improve upon" each one and make them unique.

[Richard Blackmoore]

[quote="Chris Gilman"]Richard,
That is nice to hear Brian has turned around, at least as far as his dealings with you. The main point of my post was this has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. It was also to illustrate how even when someone repeatedly does something like this, it is often not pursued in a way that brings a resolution. It seems more often, the guilty party “falls off the radarâ€

[Josh W]

Many artists are this way.

There may seriously be some truth to this.

Another armourer, a very wise man, once told me that all great modern reproduction armourers are, every one of them, cracked in the head in some way. Even him.

It seems to be an inviolable Rule in the Universe we dwell in that with great talent/genius comes a great penchant for eccentricity. That eccentricity can manifest in many forms, including, but not limited to addiction, off-the-chart weird beliefs, single-minded obsession, and dickheadedness. The best of them are able to channel their eccentric energy into their drive to exercise their genius.

Most good armourers are artists and eccentric geniuses. The trick is to find one whose eccentricities don't drown out his genius. They're out there.

[Johann ColdIron]

What happens is, theres a project that needs done. It has no voice, no muse, no inspiration other than someone else wanted it, and the artisan needed money for it.

There's another project that is singing loudly, and begging to be done.

There's an artisan who is then torn between doing what they SHOULD do, and what they WANT to do. There is a great deal of time spent wandering back and forth between projects, justifying not working on the should, and not working on the want. The artisan gets dick all done, and spends most of the day mentaly curled up in the fetal position inside their head weeping over the stress caused by the internal conflict.

Neither project works out, and that drives the artist deeper into the self.

That is a very good observation and it is one of the reasons I am not a full time artisan. It has happened to me.

I had a helmet that was kicking my ass and late. It was for a barter for which the other had already done their part. I'd work on it, get frustrated and have to step away or turn it into an ashtray Someone who had talked to me about making a C&T sword gave me the blade blank unexpectedly and the clock started on that project.

Way too much time went by and I was close on the helm but feeling guilt on the sword so it cut down my interest in either project. Then my truck needed a clutch and tranny so I worked on it so I could get to my day job. More time went. Sword guy asked if he could come over and help with the sword and I agreed even though the helm should have been first in line. We worked together on the sword and actually the progress there made me pick up the helm and finish it. That got delivered and the owner is happy (I hope) with the product and I got back to the sword.

Together the blade owner and I completed it and he asked me how much? I told him he did as much as I and I really did not feel good charging him for that. I chocked it up as a teaching/learning experience for both of us.

I can't live like that. That is why I have a day job and don't take money up front on side work or do projects with tight deadlines.