Hey Thomas Powers, did I score big? (blacksmith stuff)

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:24 am

Friday eve I was out on a job& spotted an anvil, So I asked if he did any smithing a bit of a conversation ensues& he shows me a hand cranked blowed(seized currently) a forge with a commercial pot, but the body was made from a steel tractor wheel.
A huge pile of tongs, I will have to get a count to be sure how many, but I am guessing a couple dozen, plus a flatter, a round swage,& a hot cut.& get this
not 1 but 2 carbide generators, with about a 1/3-1/2 ca of carbide,one cart for a generator plus a few partial cans of flux.

next question, of what use would an acetylene generator be for armouring?

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:45 am

How big a score? How much were they?

Lucky guy!

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:50 am

sha-ul wrote:next question, of what use would an acetylene generator be for armouring?

Nice score! We should all be so lucky.

An acetylene generator is a system that mixes calcium carbide and water to generate acetylene gas and a byproduct I don't know. That plus oxygen can be used for oxy/acetylene gas welding (or even cutting if you have enough O2). Most people I know now a days just buy tanks of acetylene gas but at some point in the past transporting dry calcium carbide must have been an easier/safer/cheaper choice. In an armoring world you can do a lot with oxy/acetylene or just acetylene and forced air as a heat source. I wouldn't spend much time working with it. I'd just go rent tanks. Simpler and cheaper.

Sean

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:53 am

Hrolfr wrote:How big a score? How much were they?

Lucky guy!

Initially I asked him how much for the blower, forge& the few tongs, he said 50, when I started clearing things out, and the tongs kept coming, and coming, and coming, & I scratched the debris on the shed floor& found probably another 10-12 pr,& then he set me up with the carbide generators I felt guilty about stealing at that price... so I gave him 100

eta he wasn't ready to part with the anvil yet

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:58 am

Sean Powell wrote:
sha-ul wrote:next question, of what use would an acetylene generator be for armouring?

Nice score! We should all be so lucky.

An acetylene generator is a system that mixes calcium carbide and water to generate acetylene gas and a byproduct I don't know. That plus oxygen can be used for oxy/acetylene gas welding (or even cutting if you have enough O2). Most people I know now a days just buy tanks of acetylene gas but at some point in the past transporting dry calcium carbide must have been an easier/safer/cheaper choice. In an armoring world you can do a lot with oxy/acetylene or just acetylene and forced air as a heat source. I wouldn't spend much time working with it. I'd just go rent tanks. Simpler and cheaper.

Sean

I am already familiar with what a carbide generator is,& I am acquainted with the theory. An elderly neighbor had one until about 3 years ago when his shop was auctioned off. I already have an oxy-acetylene torch setup, but refills for the acetylene get rather pricey, I wondered how cost effective this could be.
Plus some old timers seemed to prefer fresh rather than canned heat

hrolf · Post by **hrolf** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:46 am

depending on how beat up the blower is, that's still a really good deal.

what are the markings on the side of the blower?

tongs are cheap

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:16 am

hrolf wrote:depending on how beat up the blower is, that's still a really good deal.

what are the markings on the side of the blower?

tongs are cheap

I still need to unload the truck(I put the carbide in the shed last night) I will look at the blower markings a little closer

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:06 pm

SWEET!

Lorenz De Thornham · Post by **Lorenz De Thornham** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:31 pm

From where I am sitting that is a real good deal, the generators remind me of a book about a German guy who used them to regulate the depth of a submarine whilst he was a prisoner of war in Russia, goes into a lot of detail about how they work.
I think you got a real good deal!

fungi forge · Post by **fungi forge** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Very nice score sha-ul. You better go back and give em a kiss too.

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:59 pm

depending on the type the acetylene generators could be worth a bundle.
Acetylene generators were used for lighting in the early automotive and steam train days, if yours are of the right type they could be the missing piece of someone's $300,000 renovation. Most likely they are not, but I have seen and heard of stranger finds. Certainly worth looking into before setting them aside.

I know a lady locally who picked up an older oil lamp at a garage sale for $3 and had it sell on e-bay for $1200

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:14 pm

Dwarlock wrote:depending on the type the acetylene generators could be worth a bundle.
Acetylene generators were used for lighting in the early automotive and steam train days, if yours are of the right type they could be the missing piece of someone's $300,000 renovation. Most likely they are not, but I have seen and heard of stranger finds. Certainly worth looking into before setting them aside.

I know a lady locally who picked up an older oil lamp at a garage sale for $3 and had it sell on e-bay for $1200

The farm where I got these had a 2 story farm house that originally has gas lighting, the gent told me the carbide generator was the size of a boiler. :shock:

he also said it was still out in the pasture...

the blower looks to be a champion 400,& the fire pot may also be a champion, attached to a farm built forge which looks to be a McCormick-Deering wheel.
we also counted tongs, there are 25 prs, 1 has a broken handle, so 24 usable prs. :shock:

I need to shoot some pics& show them here for possible identification

btw Dwarlock I missed you in Ellinwood Sat.

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:41 pm

sigh, I wish I could have made it. I was stuck working in Great Bend. (hmmm considering the times perhaps I should not gripe about working)
Sad when you can't make an event 4 blocks from your house.

I often wish I had more free time, but then I think of how nice it is that I can pay bills also.

big as a boiler? ok, not the sort I was thinking of then. Sounds like it could be the start of a cool new project though.

As for the forge, get it cleaned up and prepare to get a whole new appreciation for steel, it's a whole different thing when hot.

(makes me miss my forge (still packed away in storage in Lindsborg)

Biggest bits of advice I can tell you is, (and I learned this the hard way, several times)
Just because it's not glowing doesn't mean it's not hot.
and
stainless burns worse, (no/less scale to insulate you from the heat)

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:44 am

"Just because it's not glowing doesn't mean it's not hot. "

THAT is some SERIOUS wisdom!!!!!!

A friend of mine also told me once-
If you decide to wear gloves, wear them ALL THE TIME.
If you decide not to, DON'T.
He told me it's best to not get into the habit of "I'll just wear them when I need them" because you just never fully mentally "train" yourself about the "just because it's not glowing re..." bit.

And you'll go to reach for something, (and, of course, it will be hot but not glowing!!!!) without thinking because you SOMETIMES wear gloves....

If you ALWAYS wear gloves, no biggie...
If you NEVER wear gloves, you get mentally conditioned to not touch ANYTHING without a healthy dose of skepticism.....

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:46 pm

So each item, (forge, tongs, blower) is worth about $100 at a decent price so yes you did do very well!

Thomas

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:34 pm

the carbide generators are twins, both made by sightfeed, they look to be a bit smaller than the one still made by sightfeed (I had no idea they were still in production :shock:

)
http://www.rexarc.com/products.aspx?c=66

Have you or anyone else on here used one? what were you experiences?

I also registered on iforgeiron.com last night in an attempt to id what my current forge blower is, I sadly realized that the iforge site is currently broken

but I think mine may be a cannady.

Lorenz De Thornham · Post by **Lorenz De Thornham** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:16 pm

I think you are so lucky to have them, acetylene in the UK is a pain, though getting hold of the Carbide might be difficult here too!

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:22 am

I did have a little time to play on the forge the other night, I managed to scrounge up enough material to make
a poker for digging out clinkers,
a coal rake for the forge,
& the start of a knife from the tine off of a drag harrow(should be plenty high carbon)

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 am

Will your homeowners/renter's insurance wash your hands of you for using an acetylene generator?

Thomas

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:20 pm

I haven't had a chance to visit with the insurance co yet, as it may be a moot point, I would want to rebuild these& replace rotted diaphragms& leak test before turning up to use, as I have no idea how long they have been in the barn. one is definitely rusted through the tank,& as such would need major tank work before use.
I am attempting to consult with the manufacturer to find out if rebulid kits are available, however I am curious for your input as to their usefulness in a blacksmith /armour shop

also do you have any recommendations for some basic projects for a beginning blacksmith?

I have thought about making a modified drive hook for holding spare ball stakes to the stand, basically a drive hook that would have 2 spikes, dropping down about 1.5" then sticking out 2" with a bar connecting them. forged out of one piece of 1/4" round or such.

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:11 pm

even though you already have some, tongs are always a good project (and if you work steel enough you'll find that you will be making project specific ones fairly often.)

Also there is nothing wrong with trying some simple blades, blades are a good test of heat treating. A common early project is the railroad spake knife, hint if you find a spake with the letters HC on the top it'll be high carbon steel generally around a 1050 to 1075.

Also for early projects A friend of mine would use rebar, it's off but because rebar is almost always recycled steel if you spark test it every few inches you will find spots of high carbon steel mixed in with the mild.

Oh I might note even mild steel can be heat treated to some extent.

What blacksmithing books do you have? If you don't have any yet I'll look though my stuff and get you a recommendation list.

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:23 am

speaking of tongs, have you seen this?

http://www.polarbearforge.com/for_sale.htm Jaime has tong kits for sale, at an unbelievable price

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:12 am

NO RR spikes top out at 30 points carbon NOT 1050 or 1070 as such they are at the very lowest end of Medium carbon steel! Please don't spread misinformation!

"American Railway Engineering Association's Specifications for Soft-Steel Track Spikes. Original document, 1926, revised last in 1968

Two classes of track spikes are given specifications, both low carbon and high carbon. Two sizes of track spike are identified, one of 5/8 inch square shaft and one of 9/16 inch.

Page 5-2-1. "A low carbon track spike will not contain greater than 0.12% carbon nor greater than 0.20% copper.

Page 5-2-2. Section 6a.
Bending properties: The body of a full size finished spike shall stand being bent cold through 180 degrees flat on itself without cracking on the outside portion of the bent portion.

Page 5-2-2 Section 11. Marking. A letter or brand indicating the manufacturer shall be pressed on the head of each spike while it is being formed. When copper is specified, the letters "CU" shall be added.

Page 5-2-3: Specifications for high carbon steel track spikes 1968. Carbon not greater than 0.30%, nor greater than 0.20% copper. Page 5-2-4. Section 6a. Bending properties: The body of a full size finished spike shall stand being bent cold through 120 degrees around a pin, the diameter of which is not greater than the thickness of the spike without cracking on the outside portion of the bent portion.

Page 5-2-5 Section 11. Marking: A letter or brand indicating manufacturer and also the letters "HC" indicating high carbon, shall be pressed on the head of each spike while it is being formed. When copper is specified, the letters "CU" shall be added."

Additionally included in a fax to Mike Blue by the gentleman at Wellington industries, a division of Sheffield Steel:
"Because of the bending tests required, the carbon content will not be greater than 0.30%. After all, brittle spikes would not be desirable as a track spike. A bent spike still holds the rail while a fractured spike would not. The consequences for the industry would be too great to consider. However, we refer to them as high carbon, they are not within the range of steels known as high carbon or hypereutectoid according to the steel industry standards, and have not been since at least 1926, when most track spikes were previously manufactured from wrought iron."

As for heat treating mild steel well you can heat treat A36 to an extent but that's not really mild steel even though that is what is generally sold you when you ask for mild steel these days! But try heat treating 1010 or one of the deep drawing mild steels...

On the other hand the weird 3 shaped track clips are higher to double the carbon content of an HC spike! "The current standard for rail anchors is 1040-1060 steel, depending upon manufacturer.

As for projects there are a slew of them over at anvilfire.com on the i-forge page or at iforgeiron.com on the blueprints page---if they get it fixed since the last "upgrade".

One simple handy thing are tent hooks designed for tents with perimeter poles---they have a ring on top bent 90 to fit over the pin on top of the pole and then hang down with a hook end so that you can hang things up.

Thomas

Lance de Wroclaw · Post by **Lance de Wroclaw** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 pm

I guess that means that the spikes I scrounged up might not make the best stakes eh?

Hella good find. I gotta find somebody up here like that...

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:48 pm

Thomas, thank you,
I was misinformed about the HC RR spikes. I had been told quite a while back that they were higher carbon than that, and knew that the HC ones had hardened better than the normal ones, but I never bothered to doubt my source as to the carbon content. I will have to talk with a few others I may have misinformed over the years.

Back when I did more hot work I often found myself scrounging for odd bits of steel and often my projects started out as someone else's scrap/trash.

I'll attempt to check my facts better before I offer advice from now on, rather than trust what I think I know.

Thanks again for the correction,

Johan

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:33 pm

www.archive.org has a few intresting books on metals and metalworking.
some are a bit expencive to find or darn near imposible. all of them have expired copy rights or opensource documents
scans of laking and other odd books can be found with just a bit of work.

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:24 am

Thank you for that info Thomas.
as far as a rrspike stamped hc my best bet would be a super quench if I needed to harden it, or a case hardening powder.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:07 am

HC spikes will make a decent stake if you quench them in Superquench, stakes are generally softer and tougher than a knifeblade.

Superquench would still be a better bet that a case hardening compound for a blade as the case thickness is generally lost during clean-up, polishing or sharpening. I'd go traditional case hardening and soak them for say 8 hours at low red heat in a sealed pipe filled with carbon compounds. (time is dependent ton temp and thickness). And make it a higher carbon steel (if you go to far it turns into cast iron though).

Dwarlock, no harm no foul; we're just trying to stamp out a very common misconception. It doesn't help that the RR uses the term High Carbon for them, when they are borderline mild-medium carbon. Note that A-36 "mild" steel can have carbon contest like that of a RR spike too! (I have a file on RR steels I could send you by PM if you would like it)

Now for a bit of trivia: Native Americans sometimes sharpened low grade case hardened trade knives only on one side---chisel edge---as this always leaves the edge as being the steel part. If you sharpened them on both sides they would soon wear through the steel leaving only the wrought iron core of the blade.

Thomas

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:56 pm

Well I did manage to get a little done last night at the forge, & when I went to start the fire, I saw I broke My forge :shock:

I will have to take a pic to show you, but the forge#1 the dump-t attaches to the fire pot with 2 countersunk bolts into a cast iron doughnut, which has broken into 3 or 4 pieces

but I just happened to have forge#2

so I clear the coal off#1 slide it out of the way& drag#2 under the hood

I was following a thread over on the iforgeiron site about making a hot cut& proceded to do just that, it was the end of an axle from a 3/4 tom full floater, so it was a 30 spline 1-1/8 spline, I cut off 3" drew one out a bit,& then pounded it into the hardie hole& upset a shoulder, then I flipped it& drew the other end into a taper for the blade portion, I haven't had a chance to take any pics yet. but it should work.

any suggestions on what tooling I should make next? (maybe it would help if I were to show you the inventory

also have you found any cheap sources for handles for hammers& flatters/ hot cuts/ fullers etc. and or do you make or buy your handles?

fungi forge · Post by **fungi forge** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:30 am

guillotine tools are always handy for smithingand you can find different sized lots of handels on ebay fairly inexpencive.

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:13 pm

as an update, I made an anvil saddle using the upset end of a sucker rod based upon one of the blue prints off of Iforgeiron.
I also found another anvil.
my current anvil is a farrier's anvil made by southern steel, with a 7/8 hardy hole& since it is a farriers anvil the face is a bit narrower with the horn being wider. I am guessing it is between 80&110 pounds

the anvil I picked up I *think* is a peter wright the letters PW encircled by raised dashes but you have to have certain lighting to see this. I am estimating the weight@ 1 cwt (110#)
some folks in Stafford had it for decoration next to the garden :shock:

it came on a stand with a fold out handle& lawn mower sized wheels on the back end (1 rusted out)

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:52 am

I was working out in the smithy tonight, I managed to make a bending fork out of some 3/4 X 1 1/2 flat stock, which I upset one end to fit the 7/8" hardy hole& then slit& split for a 3/4" opening the tines are still square, but maybe I should spread them out& round them off(I am limited for round swages at the time)
I was also upsetting an adapter for my stake holder, I had drawn it out with a power hammer, but it was too thin so I had to upset it. after I was done upsetting it I had to dress it back down to size& even it up with a flatter, so I called the wife out to the shop to help(yes the shop is a disaster)
she brought out a digi camcorder& uploaded some of it to youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPJScqEVQWU

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:03 pm

Cheap source of handles: A-Z on HW 71 just north of Alma AR---I stop by every time I go through AR

Thomas

Hey Thomas Powers, did I score big? (blacksmith stuff)

Hey Thomas Powers, did I score big? (blacksmith stuff)

Re: Hey Thomas Powers, did I score big? (blacksmith stuff)

Re: Hey Thomas Powers, did I score big? (blacksmith stuff)