Interest survey: laser cut tempered spring steel lamellar

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:43 pm

Greetings all. I found a supplier that has tempered spring steel (1074) in sizes, quantities, and prices that I like. I'm planning on ordering some material in.

I'm looking right now at $.75 per plate, with my entire selection of plate styles available. Most of my styles can be viewed at http://www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htm I say most, I haven't shown all simple modifications, for example, rotating holes 90 or enlarging a hole by 1/16 inch.

The material is a black-blue from the heat treat process and will rust if not cared for. Steel thickness is 0.032 inches thick. I probably won't keep much inventory in plate form on hand(though you never know), just the material and cut them as need be. Depending on the timing of an order, it could be up to two weeks for shipment. I would advise at the time of ordering.

So my question is who's interested? I'm just trying to get a rough idea of the level of interest, so showing interest is in no way a commitment of purchase.

I am also looking at a stainless version as well, but pricing is still a bit iffy on that.

Jamie

Halfdan · Post by **Halfdan** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:39 am

Well, I can't promise anything, but, after I get out from under some debt, I was thinking of purchasing some lightweight lamellar. This is exactly what I would want.

Eyvandr · Post by **Eyvandr** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:53 am

Very strong chance I would be interested in purchasing some from you. When are you thinking about having this available?

Charles Alexander · Post by **Charles Alexander** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:37 am

Awesome.

I might be interested in placing an order.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:32 am

It depends on how long it takes them to ship the material, but I'm tenatively planning on being able to ship by the end of November.

Jamie

Gaston Le Chauve · Post by **Gaston Le Chauve** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:31 pm

November would be about perfect for me...looking to start a lamellar project around then anyway.

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:12 pm

Ever thought about doing it in 410 Spring Stainless??

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:38 pm

Sextus Maximus wrote:Ever thought about doing it in 410 Spring Stainless??

Yep, that's the stainless version that I'm looking into. It's entirely a matter of price. They would be more than the spring steel.

Jamie

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:52 pm

There is a SLIM chance from a theoretical standpoint that the heat of the laser cutting will mess with the temper. The rapid air-quenching could make the edges and holes brittle. You MAY want to check a few plates for quality control purposes by bending them in a vice etc. That would be removed if you heat treated and tempered after rather then working with pre-tempered sheets.

Sounds like a great idea though.

Sean

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:37 pm

I'm not worried about the heat treat. I've cut spring steel pieces before, (different thicknesses than this) with out a hassle, and have also cut a few test plates.

The amount of heat affected zone (HAZ for short) is minimal, especially on thinner material. On quarter inch high carbon, it was only about 0.015 inches on my test pieces, and it will be smaller on this.

If I had to heat treat afterwards, then I'd have to charge quite a bit more.

Jamie

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:30 pm

I would probably be into the 410 spring stainless, and I'll have need soon, my plastic lamellar is about to fall apart in many places. What would the prices look like on the 410, aproximate estimate?

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:14 pm

polarbearforge wrote:I'm not worried about the heat treat. I've cut spring steel pieces before, (different thicknesses than this) with out a hassle, and have also cut a few test plates.

The amount of heat affected zone (HAZ for short) is minimal, especially on thinner material. On quarter inch high carbon, it was only about 0.015 inches on my test pieces, and it will be smaller on this.

If I had to heat treat afterwards, then I'd have to charge quite a bit more.

Jamie

Thats good to know. Thanks! I was considering paying a premium for water-jet pieces because I didn't want cracking during shaping even though I know I need to temper them afterwards anyway. This will make the corazinna project much more cost effective.

Sean

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:29 am

owen matthew wrote:I would probably be into the 410 spring stainless, and I'll have need soon, my plastic lamellar is about to fall apart in many places. What would the prices look like on the 410, aproximate estimate?

I'm guessing close to $1.00, but until I get recent material quotes, it's only a rough estimate.

Jamie

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:09 am

polarbearforge wrote:
owen matthew wrote:I would probably be into the 410 spring stainless, and I'll have need soon, my plastic lamellar is about to fall apart in many places. What would the prices look like on the 410, aproximate estimate?

I'm guessing close to $1.00, but until I get recent material quotes, it's only a rough estimate.

Jamie

Well, depending on the shape and type that could work I guess. Keep me in the loop, I am interested in hearing more when you know more! Owen

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:24 am

I'd be interested in spring stainless.

What are the weight savings versus various other materials?

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:34 am

Jestyr wrote:I'd be interested in spring stainless.

What are the weight savings versus various other materials?

Not much really. The stainless I sell now is 0.0359 inches thick, and the spring steel is 0.032 inches thick. Over a 4' x 10' sheet, there is about 6 pounds difference.

The main thing with the spring steels (stainless or otherwise) is that they take alot more punishment before being permanently deformed.

Jamie

Gordon the Grey · Post by **Gordon the Grey** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:31 pm

I would be interested in spring steel.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:08 pm

polarbearforge wrote:
Jestyr wrote:I'd be interested in spring stainless.

What are the weight savings versus various other materials?

Not much really. The stainless I sell now is 0.0359 inches thick, and the spring steel is 0.032 inches thick. Over a 4' x 10' sheet, there is about 6 pounds difference.

The main thing with the spring steels (stainless or otherwise) is that they take alot more punishment before being permanently deformed.

Jamie

Can you help me apply this to a real world example? What I mean:

An average lamellar suit takes 250 plates. For 250 plates, the following weights are close:
Steel: 16 lbs
Stainless: 11 lbs
Aluminum: 10 lbs
Spring: 9 lbs
Spring stainless: 9 lbs

I have no idea whether this is correct -- I assume that it is incorrect. I just wanted to show what would be most helpful to *me*. I assume it would help others as well.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:16 pm

What thickness is the example though? A .0625 thick steel lamellar suit will weigh more than a 0.032 thick steel lamellar suit. The difference being that you can use thinner material with spring than you can with mild and still have the same or more protection. This material is not much different in thickness than my current stainless (it's at 0.0359 inches and this would be at 0.032 inches) but it takes a lot more pressure to permanently deform.

I'm guessing that the thicknesses in the example are 16g for the steel, 18g for the stainless, 0.063 for the aluminum, and ~20g for the spring and spring stainless. The spring and spring stainless are lighter because they are thinner, yet the provide the same level of protection because of the alloy of steel and the heat treatment.

From my experience, unless people are using large plates, or are small-medium, 250 isn't enough.

Jamie

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:49 pm

polarbearforge wrote:
Jestyr wrote:I'd be interested in spring stainless.

What are the weight savings versus various other materials?

Not much really. The stainless I sell now is 0.0359 inches thick, and the spring steel is 0.032 inches thick. Over a 4' x 10' sheet, there is about 6 pounds difference.

The main thing with the spring steels (stainless or otherwise) is that they take alot more punishment before being permanently deformed.

Jamie

Can you get Spring Stainless thinner? Is that possible, or even desirable, so the weight difference would be more substantial spread over a vest? Maybe 22g, instead of the 20, would that change weight and cost?

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:15 pm

One of the places that I looked only had 410 tempered stainless up to 0.025 inches thick. This is 24g and I'm not convinced that's quite enough, thought I wouldn't mind hearing opinions on that.

I'm also looking at a few other alloys that have hardness, tensile strength and yield strength simliar to the 410 heat treated. I can get them in 0.031 thicknesses.

Jamie

Ieuan Gower · Post by **Ieuan Gower** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:41 pm

I think I'd be willing to try 24ga spring stainless... the stuff will be overlapped for strength and on a flexible backing (meat) so I think that they should hold up and protect reasonably well. The spring stainless on my finger gauntlets is pretty close to that and the plates are quite hard. It would also make for a super light rig without sacrificing the look.

Ieuan

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:33 pm

Ieuan Gower wrote:I think I'd be willing to try 24ga spring stainless... the stuff will be overlapped for strength and on a flexible backing (meat) so I think that they should hold up and protect reasonably well. The spring stainless on my finger gauntlets is pretty close to that and the plates are quite hard. It would also make for a super light rig without sacrificing the look.

Ieuan

That sounds good to me. I'd be intrested to get the info on this, especially if it will hold up to SCA combat.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:58 am

polarbearforge wrote:What thickness is the example though? A .0625 thick steel lamellar suit will weigh more than a 0.032 thick steel lamellar suit. The difference being that you can use thinner material with spring than you can with mild and still have the same or more protection. This material is not much different in thickness than my current stainless (it's at 0.0359 inches and this would be at 0.032 inches) but it takes a lot more pressure to permanently deform.

I'm guessing that the thicknesses in the example are 16g for the steel, 18g for the stainless, 0.063 for the aluminum, and ~20g for the spring and spring stainless. The spring and spring stainless are lighter because they are thinner, yet the provide the same level of protection because of the alloy of steel and the heat treatment.

From my experience, unless people are using large plates, or are small-medium, 250 isn't enough.

Jamie

I was completely making numbers up. I thought that was better than saying XX for any number! I was hoping you could fill in the numbers!

An average lamellar suit takes XX plates. For XX plates, the following weights are close:
Steel: ___ lbs
Stainless: ___ lbs
Aluminum: ___ lbs
Spring: ___ lbs
Spring stainless: ___ lbs

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:36 pm

Ah! My bad, now I understand. Give me a little time and I'll get you numbers.

Jamie

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:59 pm

I made my scale shirt out of .032 410 spring stainless. The shirt weighs about 25 pounds or so. The scales overlap a lot and I have yet to have a scale deform and I have been hit by two handers. In fact there are times I do not even feel a blow that was good at times. I made my scales pretty small so there were 1500 to make my shirt.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ronninscott/3729910539/

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:03 am

25 pounds, holy god that sounds heavy! I have to hand it to you though, thay is maybe the most sexy scale shirt/lamellar I have ever seen in the SCA. Do you have a tutorial or link to how you made it?

Rasper77 · Post by **Rasper77** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:27 am

Ide be interested in spring maybe.. but Ide want it the same gauge as your stainless.. Im worried if you get to thin it will cut the cording even faster...

SterlingtheSilver · Post by **SterlingtheSilver** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:00 am

I would be interested in the Spring Stainless

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:09 am

Owen, I have a pdf. I based my shirt on however I made few modifications due to the shirt being used in the SCA like for example I laced the scales together instead of stappling them as well as made them a bit bigger so that I could keep some of my sanity intact. I do not have access to my computer right now but I would be happy to send you the pdf. The cloth backing is pretty simple, the main thing is to make it durable and make sure you give yourself some extra cloth since the garment will shrink considerably when you sew the scales to it. As for weight, I do not feel it at all and it is so very comfortable much like a chain shirt. I really think you could go even thinner metal than what I used. I did some test pieces and I could bend one of my scales at a 45 degree angle and it would would not deform. I hit it with various things until I had a heavy axe the actually dented the scale and I just hammered it out afterwards. The scales will never buckle.

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:19 pm

Jestyr wrote:I was completely making numbers up. I thought that was better than saying XX for any number! I was hoping you could fill in the numbers!

If I use plate #6 from my selection, it takes 80 to cover a square foot. A decent sized shirt takes 500 plates. (It's about 2 feet tall and 1 1/2 feet wide, front and back.) Here are your approximate weights.

Aluminum, 0.063 inches thick, 10.6 pounds
mild steel, 20 gauge thick(0.0359 inches thick), 17.5 pounds
stainless steel, 20 guage thick(0.0359 inches thick), 17.5 pounds
mild steel, 18 guage thick(0.0478 inches thick), 23.25 pounds
stainless steel, 18 guage thick(0.0478 inches thick), 23.25 pounds
spring steel, 0.032 thick, 15.5 pounds
spring stainless, 0.025 thick, 12.2 pounds.

So the spring steel is about 2 pounds lighter, simply because each plate is about 0.004 inches thinner. However, the spring steel will take quite a bit more punishment than mild steel.

Jamie

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:32 am

Perfect. Thank you!

When do you think the spring and spring stainless will be available?

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:50 pm

Jestyr wrote:Perfect. Thank you!

When do you think the spring and spring stainless will be available?

I'm hoping to have the spring steel available in a few weeks. The spring stainless timeline is not established yet. Possibly the same time, possibly not.

Jamie

SterlingtheSilver · Post by **SterlingtheSilver** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:09 pm

For the Stainless Spring Steel, do you think you will be able to flute them as well?

polarbearforge · Post by **polarbearforge** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:02 pm

SterlingtheSilver wrote:For the Stainless Spring Steel, do you think you will be able to flute them as well?

Nope. The only way I would do that, is to get annealed sheet, flute them, and then heat treat them. The price would be high.

Jamie