If you live in Cleveland, Ohio, you cannot truthfully say that professional football is a game where winning is the objective.
At least, the way we play it out here.
I want to hear thoughts on this person's rant
Hmmmm - sounds like I'll have to accept that there is category, apparently unrecognized, of 'comedic sports'. And I further observe that comedy plays a big part of my enjoyment of sca melees - I lovingly refer to it as ACCT - Armored Combat Comedy Theater.
More seriously, I was taught sports was intended to be conducted in a sportsmanlike fashion, but the reality (of my experience and observation) is that (largely) only lip service is done. The experience of others may be quite different.
As to marathon runners, I observe that running well seems to be an art and that running is a martial skill. Not being a runner (I jog as cross-training for sca meleeing), I would not claim to understand or fully appreciate all the subtle nuances of their competition and how they approach it and each other.
For many years I thought of myself happily as a sports fighter. I got over it.
Regards
Avery
More seriously, I was taught sports was intended to be conducted in a sportsmanlike fashion, but the reality (of my experience and observation) is that (largely) only lip service is done. The experience of others may be quite different.
As to marathon runners, I observe that running well seems to be an art and that running is a martial skill. Not being a runner (I jog as cross-training for sca meleeing), I would not claim to understand or fully appreciate all the subtle nuances of their competition and how they approach it and each other.
For many years I thought of myself happily as a sports fighter. I got over it.
Regards
Avery
Doppel of Eberhauer
Imperial Mercenary of Atenveldt
Even a squire can win Crown Tournament.
Imperial Mercenary of Atenveldt
Even a squire can win Crown Tournament.
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Stefan ap Llewelyn
- Archive Member
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- Location: West Dragonshire, ID, Drachenwald
MJBlazek wrote:Eynar wrote:Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Obviously not what I'm saying. Saying SCA combat IS a sport and arguing it's not because "winning isn't the only objective" makes no sense because that is not a requirement or even a common trait of sports
In which sports is winning not the objective?
Marathon Running....
Yes while some do compete towards the objective of winning, the majority compete to break personal goals, for some crossing the finish line is the only goal.
Professional Soccer.
No sport that allows games to end in a 0-0 tie can state that winning is the objective.
In Soccer winning is the objective, draws are merely possible. By your logic boxing is not a sport either or many more that I cannot think of off the top of my head.
However, Marathon running is an interesting example ....
However, I think the difference you are talking about is not in the sport, it is in the mindset of the competitor. I could fight in a boxing match with the sole intention of winning - or I could compete just to give myself an objective and prove I am not too old etc.
I think the same is true in SCA combat. Some people fight to win within the confines of the rules and the rules state that acting with chivalry is required and therefore they do. Others enjoy the recreational and social aspects and therefore whether they win or not is not the primary concern.
It is a sport to some, a hobby to others, a martial art to other others and probably a silly waste of time to many. How each person feels about it is within them.
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Leopold der Wolf
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- Location: Meridies
Guy just sounds bitter.
Yeah alot of heavy fighters sneer and look down on rapier fighters. They're whimps for not slugging it out with the bros. A Lot of rapier people sneer at Heavy's for swinging around pieces of bamboo and using rules that invalidate a large majority of actual combat.
Whatever.
I do both. Both crowds have their cool people and deluded people who take the game wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously. When your life is falling apart and all you care about is the SCA then you have an issue.
I can't strike below the knees, grapple or do many period techniques in Heavy. I do it because its fun. Its a sport, a fantasy, a really fun game.
I can't grapple in rapier, do percussive hits, wrestle or punch. Its a sport, a fantasy, a really fun game. Treat it as such and you'll have a great time.
The weight/obesity issue in our society is a bit of a problem. We have a huge amount of obese members. Its their life, but I'd hope they'd take care of themselves for their sake and their friends, family and health. I would not want to see my plus sized buddies getting heart attacks or diabetes.
Anyway, the best thing the Society can do I think is reinforce how fun the society is. When people get "Super serious" about it and treat the game like its the most important thing in their life its going to cause issues.
Go out, fight, hang out with your friends and have a fun time.
Yeah alot of heavy fighters sneer and look down on rapier fighters. They're whimps for not slugging it out with the bros. A Lot of rapier people sneer at Heavy's for swinging around pieces of bamboo and using rules that invalidate a large majority of actual combat.
Whatever.
I do both. Both crowds have their cool people and deluded people who take the game wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too seriously. When your life is falling apart and all you care about is the SCA then you have an issue.
I can't strike below the knees, grapple or do many period techniques in Heavy. I do it because its fun. Its a sport, a fantasy, a really fun game.
I can't grapple in rapier, do percussive hits, wrestle or punch. Its a sport, a fantasy, a really fun game. Treat it as such and you'll have a great time.
The weight/obesity issue in our society is a bit of a problem. We have a huge amount of obese members. Its their life, but I'd hope they'd take care of themselves for their sake and their friends, family and health. I would not want to see my plus sized buddies getting heart attacks or diabetes.
Anyway, the best thing the Society can do I think is reinforce how fun the society is. When people get "Super serious" about it and treat the game like its the most important thing in their life its going to cause issues.
Go out, fight, hang out with your friends and have a fun time.
“As a fencer, conduct yourself with honesty, courtesy, dignity, and grace at all
times, never engaging in any behaviour that would bring disgrace upon yourself,
your Master, or the sword." -Evangelista
times, never engaging in any behaviour that would bring disgrace upon yourself,
your Master, or the sword." -Evangelista
Eynar wrote:MJBlazek wrote:Eynar wrote:Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Obviously not what I'm saying. Saying SCA combat IS a sport and arguing it's not because "winning isn't the only objective" makes no sense because that is not a requirement or even a common trait of sports
In which sports is winning not the objective?
Marathon Running....
Yes while some do compete towards the objective of winning, the majority compete to break personal goals, for some crossing the finish line is the only goal.
Professional Soccer.
No sport that allows games to end in a 0-0 tie can state that winning is the objective.
In Soccer winning is the objective, draws are merely possible. By your logic boxing is not a sport either or many more that I cannot think of off the top of my head.
However, Marathon running is an interesting example ....
However, I think the difference you are talking about is not in the sport, it is in the mindset of the competitor. I could fight in a boxing match with the sole intention of winning - or I could compete just to give myself an objective and prove I am not too old etc.
I think the same is true in SCA combat. Some people fight to win within the confines of the rules and the rules state that acting with chivalry is required and therefore they do. Others enjoy the recreational and social aspects and therefore whether they win or not is not the primary concern.
It is a sport to some, a hobby to others, a martial art to other others and probably a silly waste of time to many. How each person feels about it is within them.
Marathon running was the only true example.. I was just takign a cheap shot at soccer...
I agree with what you said about the mindset.
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Stefan ap Llewelyn
- Archive Member
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:01 am
- Location: West Dragonshire, ID, Drachenwald
It is possible for the same activity to be sport, recreation, or art depending on the mindset of the person involved.
Take dance. There are folks whose sole focus is winning dance competitions; these folks judge success by how many trophies they have. Others spend hours every day practicing to perfect their form, and care most about how closely they can approach the Platonic ideal of dance. Finally, some folks just want to enjoy shakin' their booty, and to hell with everything else. Each of these folks is likely to think that the others have missed the point of dancing, when the truth is that they simply see a different point.
This is a hard thing to keep in mind. Myself, I view fencing as art, which means that my instinctive reaction to sport and recreational fencing is to grit my teeth. From my perspective, this and thisare equally godawful. The same for all the SCA heavy fighting that I've seen. But dammit, I have to back up and remind myself that we are working toward different goals, and teh suck in my world is not teh suck in theirs. This is especially hard to do when you are deeply invested in your vision of your hobby*.
The fellow in the original post sounds as if he was not approaching SCA fighting with this in mind, or rather that he didn't realize that his goals might not be the same ones that drive the folks around him. Of course the SCA is gonna seem to suck if it--as a collective--values different ends than you do for the same activities. He needs to take a deep breath, look to himself, and either change his goals or find folks who share them.
*this all changes the moment you start claiming to be working toward the same goal that I am. You wanna value art, you'd better damned well display an understanding of what that entails or I have no qualms about filing you under "suck".
Take dance. There are folks whose sole focus is winning dance competitions; these folks judge success by how many trophies they have. Others spend hours every day practicing to perfect their form, and care most about how closely they can approach the Platonic ideal of dance. Finally, some folks just want to enjoy shakin' their booty, and to hell with everything else. Each of these folks is likely to think that the others have missed the point of dancing, when the truth is that they simply see a different point.
This is a hard thing to keep in mind. Myself, I view fencing as art, which means that my instinctive reaction to sport and recreational fencing is to grit my teeth. From my perspective, this and thisare equally godawful. The same for all the SCA heavy fighting that I've seen. But dammit, I have to back up and remind myself that we are working toward different goals, and teh suck in my world is not teh suck in theirs. This is especially hard to do when you are deeply invested in your vision of your hobby*.
The fellow in the original post sounds as if he was not approaching SCA fighting with this in mind, or rather that he didn't realize that his goals might not be the same ones that drive the folks around him. Of course the SCA is gonna seem to suck if it--as a collective--values different ends than you do for the same activities. He needs to take a deep breath, look to himself, and either change his goals or find folks who share them.
*this all changes the moment you start claiming to be working toward the same goal that I am. You wanna value art, you'd better damned well display an understanding of what that entails or I have no qualms about filing you under "suck".
Count Johnathan wrote:Clean not thick. Willing to accept a good blow rather than to ignore it for the victory.
Ya.
And a little style goes a long way.
Martel le Hardi
black for the darkness of the path
red for a fiery passion
white for the blinding illumination
--------------------------------------
Ursus, verily thou rocketh.
black for the darkness of the path
red for a fiery passion
white for the blinding illumination
--------------------------------------
Ursus, verily thou rocketh.
It's not a matter of winning or losing. That's only one standard by which success can be measured. If two man make three passes, each striking the other upon his shield, neither being unseated, then who has won? You might argue that both have won or you might argue that both have lost or you might argue that neither has won.
In armored combat we have a clear set of rules to produce a clear winner. Mostly clear. Our method of choosing monarchs and our modern mindset demands that we do so. Is victory the only goal? Consider the following two examples.
A man enters the crown tournament and fights thick. Nothing terribly blatant, nothing the crown feels gives them sufficient impetus to eject the man from the tournament. He wins the tournament by defeating all other opponents. Has he won? Yes. Has his reputation increased?
A man enters a tournament and disarms his opponent three times. On the fourth pass his opponent strikes a clean blow. Who won? The man who struck the clean blow. Has the reputation of the loser suffered?
I submit that victory is always important, but is sometimes not the only goal. There are examples of men who are chastised for injuring their opponents during deeds. They demonstrated a lack of skill or sportsmanship (for want of a better term) in doing so. Men who were clearly outmatched stood firm in the lists and were praised for their courage. If you insist upon sticking with the modern mindset, then victory is what matters and little else. If you consider the medieval mindset, you may find that victory has a little less luster than you might have thought.
My opinion and worth about a penny less than you paid for it.
In armored combat we have a clear set of rules to produce a clear winner. Mostly clear. Our method of choosing monarchs and our modern mindset demands that we do so. Is victory the only goal? Consider the following two examples.
A man enters the crown tournament and fights thick. Nothing terribly blatant, nothing the crown feels gives them sufficient impetus to eject the man from the tournament. He wins the tournament by defeating all other opponents. Has he won? Yes. Has his reputation increased?
A man enters a tournament and disarms his opponent three times. On the fourth pass his opponent strikes a clean blow. Who won? The man who struck the clean blow. Has the reputation of the loser suffered?
I submit that victory is always important, but is sometimes not the only goal. There are examples of men who are chastised for injuring their opponents during deeds. They demonstrated a lack of skill or sportsmanship (for want of a better term) in doing so. Men who were clearly outmatched stood firm in the lists and were praised for their courage. If you insist upon sticking with the modern mindset, then victory is what matters and little else. If you consider the medieval mindset, you may find that victory has a little less luster than you might have thought.
My opinion and worth about a penny less than you paid for it.
"Success consists of getting up just one more time than you fall."
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Alex Baird
- Archive Member
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- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:55 pm
- Location: Santa Clarita, CA
SCA combat rules are simply a set of agreed parameters for fighting in a relatively safe manner.
One can use them with a mindset of winning every bout, with minimizing armor, using lightweight composites by preference, high traction shoes, and calling every shot to the limits allowed. Call it "sport fighting".
One can use them as a method for pushing his own abilities, learning and improving by constant testing against others, and using the kit that best appeals to him or he can afford. Call it "martial training".
One can use them as a jumping off point to try experiencing authentic period techniques and armor, in a sub-lethal contest. Call it "historical exploration".
All are valid uses, none are exclusive, and none pursued solely satisfy the objectives of the other two.
One can use them with a mindset of winning every bout, with minimizing armor, using lightweight composites by preference, high traction shoes, and calling every shot to the limits allowed. Call it "sport fighting".
One can use them as a method for pushing his own abilities, learning and improving by constant testing against others, and using the kit that best appeals to him or he can afford. Call it "martial training".
One can use them as a jumping off point to try experiencing authentic period techniques and armor, in a sub-lethal contest. Call it "historical exploration".
All are valid uses, none are exclusive, and none pursued solely satisfy the objectives of the other two.