Combat archery

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Mon Jan 01, 2001 10:43 am

I am posting this because I missed the thread that got deleted and Richard has made some refrences to it about combat archery.
I love Heavy C/A however I share Richard's opinion that wooden or fiberglass shafts do not belong on the battlefield. I use golf tubes with baldar blunts and a 50 lb bow (golf tubes are all thats legal here) and I have never had a problem, even in other Kingdoms, with people taking my shots.
I was still using Tube/Tennis balls at War and killed MANY people in the Abbey battle.
However...I also had to pull one of the shafted arrows out of a friends bargrill at Pennsic last year. It had gone into his helmet sideways (across his vision), knock first, and cut his nose. There was NO anti-bounce back device and it almost cost him an eye. I am sorry but if there is a chance that ONE person could be blinded then that is too much. I feel golf tubes are safe and work fine.
I love C/A and have had great fun with it when I have done it and I am interested to hear other peoples experiences, specifically from Kingdoms who have had it for somr time, as this is still pretty new here.
It sure keeps the "spear gods" on their toes!!!

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:44 pm

I know what you mean. I LOVE Heavy Combat Archery. I was one of the first dozen or so people in the Middle Kingdom authorized in Combat Archery (Golf Tube only in the Midrealm) and as a marshal have authorized 30 or so additional people.

I have two favorite memories so far as a Combat Archer. Early after Combat Archery became legal in the Midrealm I attended a small event in Kenosha, Wisconsin. There were about 16 fighters there, and I was the only Combat Archer. At One point we did some meleeing 8vs8. The first round of that melee my team said "Okay, we have an archer, try to keep him alive". They arrayed in front of me and the oppposing team approached in an open formation. I started shooting and before I knew it there was only one person left alive on the opposing team. I had killed 7 out of the 8 fighters. One of my teammates dispatched the last one while everyone else was rolling on the ground laughing. The opposing team quickly revised their tactics and did much better.

That leads me to my absolute favorite memory as a combat archer. One of the opposing team members was a young fighter (fast, good, and with an excellent attitude) named Leaf Greyfox. He swung around the flank of my team unnoticed by anyone except me. With nothing but 15 feet of empty space between him and me he stopped, grinned and said "Take your best shot!" I shot him between the eyes, much to his chagrin. He later told me that he didn't think much of combat archery until then. History repeated itself at an event several years later (Warriors & Warlords IV, I think). Leaf had broken thru the lines in our fort and was running across the inside to wreak havoc on one of our gates (would have worked, too!). He stopped for a second to look around and take stock of the situation. As he turned to face me I shot him between the eyes again. He is much more arrow-shy now. (He also was knighted in early December!)

Just as a side note, I use a permanent magic marker to draw scary faces on the heads of my combat arrows. I figure they can't see where they are going without eyes!

Kevin the Hound

(Known in the Midrealm as Kevin O'Shaughnessy)

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Tue Jan 02, 2001 2:41 pm

sarnac - how do you use the baldar blunts with a golf tube? Last i saw he only makes them for wood and fiberglass shafts.

Thorkell · Post by **Thorkell** » Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:10 pm

Do you use a fine mesh over the bar grills at all?

We use wooden shafted arrows here with a fibre tape on them (to stop splintering) and are limited to 30# bows. We do however also use a mesh over the bar grills to stop any part of the arrow going thru it and becomming a problem, and thats probably the reason we have no injuries at all with them here.

If you dont have mesh on your helms, I definately agree that you shouldnt be using them.

Both forms of arrows can be very safe, but only if you take the proper countermeasures also for the people on the receiving end of the arrows.

Thorkell

Jonathon More · Post by **Jonathon More** » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:18 pm

while i will probably never give up my glaive for anything else, it sure is nice to be seal-clubbing the snot out of the bad guy's shield wall and yell over my shoulder "hey you, archer, make that duke with the spear get back behind the lines over there" Even if the archer doesnt get the kill, having Duke spearalot duck behind his squires shields is awfull nice once in a while

------------------
Johnathon
pax, pax, est non mi pax

Le Brassey · Post by **Le Brassey** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 2:37 am

The x-bow bolts made by Surefoot Fellwalker use a UHMW plastic head a fiberglass shaft and an UHMW ADB. The building technique uses multiple layers of fiberglass tape for durability and redundancy. The head is covered with foam, both front & sides.

This is a very safe & dependable projectile for CA purposes.

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Timothy D. Finkas
Long Beach, CA

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jagatei:
sarnac - how do you use the baldar blunts with a golf tube? Last i saw he only makes them for wood and fiberglass shafts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you have to do is turn the blunt over and look at the underside. There ar six little spokes of plastic that run from the inner collar (for the shafts) to the outer ring of the blunt. You have to take a exacto-knife and cut them at the outside edge. when that is done the blunt will slide onto the golf tube with the edge of the tube going into the slits you just made. After that use strapping tape, then cover in red on the tip put you knock in and fire away!

Oh...
and no we do not require mesh on our grills as of now which is the reason we dont use shafts

[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 01-03-2001).]

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 2:19 pm

I'm familiar with wooden and fibreglass shaft war arrows, but haven't even seen a golf-tube. How do you make them?? How are the ballistics?? Do they fly true or do they wanna sort of make their own flight path? What do you use for the shaft, knock, etc?? don't laff at my questions too hard.....I'm a neophyte at this and like I said...haven't even seen a golf tube.

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The way to a man's heart is between the second and third ribs

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 4:12 pm

I cant really tell you how to make the golf tube arrows but I have been on the receiving end of them. My honest opinion of their ballistics etc. is they are a joke. They are oversized, slow, too heavy, and can be hard to feel if you dont see the arrow hit you. They are incredibly easy to push out of my path with a glaive.

I much prefer baldar blunts with wood or fiberglass shafts. I dont beleive we have had any injuries resulting from the shafts in this kingdom.

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 4:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm familiar with wooden and fibreglass shaft war arrows, but haven't even seen a golf-tube. How do you make them?? How are the ballistics?? Do they fly true or do they wanna sort of make their own flight path? What do you use for the shaft, knock, etc?? don't laff at my questions too hard.....I'm a neophyte at this and like I said...haven't even seen a golf tube.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jagatei has hte right of it. The golf tune arrows don't even come close to compairing with the fiberglass arrows. I guess if you put a large enough abd on the fiberglass, then they'll fly jsut as poorly, but I don't advocate abd's. I'm a lot more worried about tree branches and so on getting into my grill than I am an arrow shaft. The easiest solution is to wear safety glasses, sports goggles, etc inside your helmet to protect your eyes.

Dan

Hensojin · Post by **Hensojin** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 5:32 pm

Does someone know a web site where all of this is shown, or where I can learn basic about combat archery equipment standard etc...

Does someone have pics of those "safe" arrows?

I also heard rumors about staff slings, is there a web page somewhere about this too?

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 03, 2001 10:10 pm

Well,
All I have ever used is golf tube arrows and I have NEVER had a problem with anyone ever taking a shot form me. Of course I use a 50lb bow which is the max. I can shoot very accurately with them. I dont know where you live Jagetai but out here our archers are pretty deadly.

This is the Construction right out of our Marshal's Handbook-

Combat arrows and bolts of this type shall be constructed by using one plastic golf tube and attaching a Baldar Blunt to the end. The head end of the golf tube must have a 2-liter plastic soda cap in the very end of it. The flat side of the cap seats against the foam, and the open side of the cap faces out the end. The end of the golf tube must be reinforced in this manner to prevent the tube folding over behind the Baldar Blunt.

The end of the golf tube must be seated and bottomed out inside the Baldar Blunt. The golf tube may be glued to the inside of the Baldar Blunt. The Baldar Blunt must be securely attached to the golf tube. Using a piece of 3/4 inch or wider filament tape, run a piece from the side of the golf tube up over the tip of the Baldar Blunt and down the other side. The filament tape must extend down from the Baldar Blunt 2 inches along the length of the golf tube. Repeat the process until the entire Baldar Blunt is completely covered.

Run a piece of 3/4 inch or wider filament tape around the golf tube which covers the tape coming down from the Baldar Blunt. The entire Baldar Blunt must be covered with red tape. Tubes must be filled with a soft foam.
Use of spray foam is prohibited.

Fletches must be of a soft, flexible material, such as foam or duct tape. Size and number of fletches on each arrow is left to the discretion of the archer. Fletches are not required on combat arrows or crossbow bolts.
The maximum length of each arrow shaft is 28 inches. The 28 inches is measured from the bottom of the nock slot to the base of the Baldar Blunt. The minimum length of each crossbow bolt is 14 inches. The 14 inches is measured from point of contact with the string to the base of the Baldar Blunt.

Additional weight, beyond the materials needed to construct the arrow or bolt, is not allowed. Foam is not considered additional weight and must be added to the golf tube to aid in rigidity. Acceptable types of foam are insulated pipe wrap foam and extruded polystyrene. Examples: Owens-Corning Foamular 150 extruded polystyrene insulation or Dow Styrofoam extruded polystyrene insulation.

Arrow shafts and crossbow bolts need not be covered with tape. They may, however, be taped if so desired.

A notch may be placed at the end of the arrow or bolt if desired. The size is left to the discretion of the archer. The depth of the notch, however, may not be more than 1/2 (one half of an inch.) deep.. Notches must be reinforced to help keep the shape of the notch. Example: a plastic bottle cap from a 2-liter soda bottle. Reinforcement must be added to the string end of a crossbow bolt.

Holding tabs may be placed at the end of arrows or bolts so they may be held by archers wearing gauntlets. Holding tabs must be securely attached and constructed of a non-rigid material such as cloth or light leather.

Here are some pics of one of my arrows. http://www.mnsi.net/~shadow8/arrow1.jpg http://www.mnsi.net/~shadow8/arrow2.jpg http://www.mnsi.net/~shadow8/arrow3.jpg

I actually just applied to be the new Deputy Earl Marshal for Combat Archery and Siege Weapons for our Kingdom.

See...I don't want to modify armour to protect people from something that doesnt need to be there, especially if we already have a viable alternative in use.

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 12:41 pm

Well, I repectfully disagree that golf tube arrows are a viable alternative. Ive been a target for both golf tube and baldar blunt/fiberglass and wood arrows and shot a few myself. From my experience the golf tubes neither look nor handle like real arrows and I beleive the gains in safety are probably minimal. (Our archery marshal looked into missle combat injuries when they were pushing ABD's. There were no cases where an injury occured in this kingdom by the use of wood or fiberglass shafts)

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 12:52 pm

J. - I understand that...however you have to agree that the shafted arrows have a higher potential for injury than the golf tubes which have almost zero.
So my logic is that if there is even a one in a thousand chance that someone could be blinded by a shafted arrow then those odds are too high. Say what you want about performance but when it comes to C/A I want it to be safe first. I am out there to have fun not be blinded or blind a sword brother.
I will trade what ever meager performance gain there is for the almost guarantee of saftey any day of the week. This isnt a sprained ankle or cracked rib we are talking about. You dont rest for a few weeks and heal a lost eye. Nope... not gonna take that chance.
Not on my watch.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 1:11 pm

Ever hear of Markland blunts? 31 years of wooden shafts flying about and no injuries.
http://www.markland.org/rulesfrat.html#bows

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DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 2:22 pm

The risks from wooden or fiberglass shafter arrows are usbstantially less than from the rattan weapons we use. The risk to your eyes is greater from tree branches and sticks on teh ground during battles than it is from the arrows. If you are worried about getting something in your eye wear safety glasses or look into putting a piece of lexan inside your helmet. (I'm not sure what the final outcome was on lexan, but it was being considered for this purpose at one point.)

Dan

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 5:46 pm

I actually DO wear a lexan shield laced to my bargrill during the woods battle.

But last time I checked there werent any trees in the middle of the battlefield so to say there is more danger from sticks is kind of a moot point.
Sticks arent hittng the guy next to me and bouncing around like I have seen these shafted arrows do. If you read my first post you will see that I pulled on out of a friends helmet grill at War last year. It bounced off the side of the guys helm next to him and went in through his grill knock first.
So dont tell me it cant happen because I actually SAW it happen. That is what changed my mind about his whole topic.

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Thu Jan 04, 2001 10:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I actually DO wear a lexan shield laced to my bargrill during the woods battle.

So dont tell me it cant happen because I actually SAW it happen. That is what changed my mind about his whole topic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, wear the lexan when there is archery or don't fight in battles with archery. But don't make archery as ineffective as it ends up with golf tubes.

And, yes there are sticks in the middle of the field, at least on some sites. I've been to war sites where you couldn't avoid them.

Dan

Bob Charron · Post by **Bob Charron** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 8:13 am

Combat archery is a great deal of fun, especially for the folks who get to shoot the bows :-)

I think it should be included in one or two battles per SCA war.

However, even with golf tubes, it is exponentially more effective at eliminating armored combatants than archery was in the period. That's why those folks spent as much as it cost for a large house for their armor. The chronicles consistently show that archery never did that much killing in the field.

It was a great tactical tool, injuring unarmored horses, harrassing, compressing the flanks of formations so they could be handled easily by a smaller number of men-at-arms etc.

If there were only some way to translate that to the SCA, and to use archery in the way it was historically used....perhaps the experts and historians of archery could come up with some scenarios that recreate battles of the Hundred Year's War, where archery from the flanks compressed the advancing formations of French men-at-arms. Of course, all the archers would have to be armored combatants, so they could drop their bows when the compression was finished and the contact was made with their own infantry, and run out with clubs to join the fighting on the flanks of the opposing column.

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Conn MacNiell

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 8:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanNV:
 So, wear the lexan when there is archery or don't fight in battles with archery. But don't make archery as ineffective as it ends up with golf tubes.
Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all archery is VERY effective with golf tubes. There isnt a battle out there that I cant be just as effective with my tubes as someonelse with the shafts. The big difference...mine ARE SAFE.
But to say that I shouldnt participate in an archery battle because I think shafts are unsafe is arrogant at the least. That is not what this is about. We are out there to have fun and INCLUDE as many people into this experience as we can. If people have a concern about the saftey of shafts why shouldnt they be accomodated as well?? If I can be just as efective and be safe what is wrong with that? I cant understand this lack of regard for the saftey of others?

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But to say that I shouldnt participate in an archery battle because I think shafts are unsafe is arrogant at the least.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's a valid suggestion for people who don't like a particular activity. If you don't like great weapons you don't fight in a list that requires great weapons so waht's the difference?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
That is not what this is about. We are out there to have fun and INCLUDE as many people into this experience as we can.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't argue with that. I do believe we should include as many people as possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
If people have a concern about the saftey of shafts why shouldnt they be accomodated as well?? If I can be just as efective and be safe what is wrong with that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We tried golf tubes here along with shafted arrows. The golf tubes didn't work half as well as the shafter arrows. So, based on that, I'd say they aren't as effective. They tend to bend and then never fly straight again, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I cant understand this lack of regard for the saftey of others? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I'm worried about being injured by your rattan stick do you change your stick or do I wear armor that makes me comfortable? There isn't a lack of regard for the safety of anyone. You seem to prefer to regulate the weapon into ineffectiveness and I prefer to have people wear armor that protects them and leaves the weapon reasonably effective.

If I had what I want, we'd all go back to wearing screan in archery battles (or lexan or what have you) and using 7/8" blunts so the arrows would perform substantially better, like the used to.

Dan

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:45 pm

Dan- I guess where we are disagreeing mostly is on the effectiveness of golf tube arrows. I have found them VERY effective and with the recent modifications of the rules allowing baldar blunts (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) and heavier bows they are even more so effective.
You obviously have had different expreiences with them.
I dont want to regulate the weapon...actually or the armor. I want a comprimise that is safe to use without having to make armour restrictions any worse than they are.
I for one would rather see golf tubes flying around than a bunch of fighters with lexan and mesh tied to their helmets.
This is just one thing that we will have to agree to disagree on.

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 1:34 pm

Dan,

Just curious: What was the poundage of the bows you fired golf tube arrows with when you tested them?

Kevin the Hound

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 1:57 pm

Conn -- actually, with my folks, archers did insane damage to armored figures. Eliminated several heirs to the HRE, too... (have to see where I can dig up those chronicles, make it a library day).

But the magyar war arrowheads were a little more varied than those of western europe. In addition to your barbed, bodkinesque, and delta points, they also used one for war and hunting fur-bearing animals that was essentially a four-sided very steep pyramid. Tests with this in Budapest showed that not only did these arrows fly right through 1/4" mail, but you could actually slide the arrowhead through a wide link (like 9th-cent stuff), or about halfway through the 1/4" with no strength required at all.

Part of this may also have had to do with steppe arrow shafts being spindle-shaped....

Okay, I'm ranting. You're right, for western europe, especially after the 13th century, casualties from archery are fairly light...

Bob Charron · Post by **Bob Charron** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 3:36 pm

Russ,

I ask the following because I'm interested.

Were these tests against butted or riveted maille? If they were against riveted maille then they would be bursting riveted links in order to get in, or the arrow head or shaft would bottom out on the ring as soon as the part of the arrow that's the same diameter as the ID of the ring gets to the link.

Tests against riveted maille, even from very short distances, don't seem to be able to break links.

So as I'm constantly asking folks to supply citations of armored noble deaths to arrows that went through the armor, I'd be very interested in your information. I haven't been able to scare up a single one in a couple of years.

------------------
Conn MacNiell

Willing Pell · Post by **Willing Pell** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 4:24 pm

Where do you get the materials to make golf tube arrows, (the golf tubes themselve, blunts etc.)?

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 5:29 pm

I think you can get golf tubes at any good sporting-supply store.

When I first started SCA fighting, 20 years ago, golf tube arrows were used in Meridies. Remarkably unalarming: slow, inaccurate and easy to block or dodge. When I first encountered wooden arrows with blunt tips, it was immediately apparent that it was a new day for the combat archer in Meridies. (The golf tubes are still used for javelins.)

Even though I've only been on the receiving end (usually on the left nipple, for some reason) of arrows, they really add to the atmosphere. Granted, the safety issue is a serious one (though I think a typical woods battle has a much higher risk of eye injury).

Rather than going back to golf tubes, or requiring fighters to put mesh or Lexan inside their helmets, could we modify the wooden arrow to prevent the nock end from going through an eyeslot? Perhaps some sort of conical structure on the nock end; obvious concerns are whether it would interfere with loading and shooting the arrow, and whether it would be detrimental to the arrow's accuracy. Worth some experimentation.

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 5:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kevin the Hound:
Dan,

Just curious: What was the poundage of the bows you fired golf tube arrows with when you tested them?

Kevin the Hound<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least some of them were close to 50 pounds because the next rules change required 30 pounds for everything unless there were only golf tube arrows on the field. They perform better with a 50, but they still don't compare to the shafter arrows.

Now, at West/An Tir this last summer I was watching some of the archery and have little doubt that some of the archers were using 50 pound or so bows with fiberglass shafter arrows. They flew to level, too far for a 30 and the one i got hit with hit a good deal harder than a 30 would. However, I wouldn't mind a rules change allowing the 50's with shafted arrows because they still don't hit half as hard as a stick of rattan does.

Dan

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Jan 06, 2001 2:38 pm

Conn,

Oh, I'm a wannabe scholar. You can pull off the gloves, and I don't mind...

1. In terms of sources, I have to get back to you. These were translated primary sources I used in a course some time ago: I would have to see if I could get a copy of that reader again (it's even possible that I've misremembered the source).
2. The tests were done against butted mail, and I freely admit that riveted mail would have been more resistant to wider arrowheads. The point in issue, however, was that these arrowheads were so narrow that they could be easily pushed right through the center of the individual link, even when it was linked up in a mail shirt: effectively a giant sewing needle. This is also (it is said)why they were used for hunting fur animals: the damage done to a pelt was minimal. we have no sources extant that would say one way or another what sorts of arrowheads were collected or "issued" for campaign, only those which were found in graves, where there is almost always an assortment (figuring, one guesses, that you have to have all types available for the afterlife).

I would like to test with some riveted mail (which will be my next armour purchase, as I will need that and some spaulders for 16th-century border warfare reconstructions) and see if I can duplicate the difference made by the cylindrical vs. spindle-shaped arrowshafts, as well. The local hungarians all insist that it's a small, but very important detail for penetration.

Christoffer · Post by **Christoffer** » Sat Jan 06, 2001 6:08 pm

I have to agree with Jagatei that golf tubes are not as effective as Baldar Blunts. Having been on the recieving end of both the blunts are far more effective. Golf tube arrows are annoying, while blunts are deadly.

There is a potential for injury in this hobby. We must determine what level of risk that we find acceptable. I know of no injurys from arrows and only one time that an arrow bounced back and stuck in a bar grill. It was a golf tube, the bar grill belonged to Duke Baldar at a war between Atlantia and Trimaris. Rattan related injuries that I know of include spiral fractue of the forearm (Lady Ryah), ankle in cast for six weeks due to ankle injury (me) tooth knocked out of head by overhand glaive shot(me) pulled neck muscles ( guy next to me in Butler ER). These injuries aren't the norm and some of them are freaky some are because of rules violations ( excessive force) but the potential for them to happen is always present. What level of risk are we willing to accept is what we have to determine in my opinion.

lothar of the hill people · Sun Jan 07, 2001 12:14 am

Have personally seen nock end of wood arrow through grill, (Fellow named Morgan at Autumn War of 2000)but also loss of ball hitch used as pommel that creamed a marshalls glasses at June fair 1995. Arrows add a lot to realism for wars in my opinion. Maybe West Kingdoms rule of larger steel plates as proof vs arrows would be an acceptable balance of the effort made to wear full plate with authentic missle fire?

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Jan 07, 2001 11:57 am

I think baldar blunts in golf tubes are the best solution. They're safe, and they fly better than tennis-ball tipped arrows. There's no reason to add wire mesh to thousands of helmets.

Conn,

AS far as arrows being effective against armored opponents, I remind everyone that the accepted armor standard is a mail hauberk and open-face helm. They were indeed susceptible to arrow fire, particularly from longbows firing bodkin points. For example, there is the famous story of the knight who was pinned to his horse through his hauberk, leg, saddle and into the horse by an arrow. There is the response to English archery by the armorers, which fueled the transition from mail to plate.

If mail was so effective against the weapons of the day, why did mail become supplanted by plate? It was in use for over a thousand years with no change. It was incredibly expensive, so if it was working, there was no impetus to change it. The major change that occured was the increased use of piercing weapons by non-nobles.

Conn, I agree that arrows are dispoportionately effective against armored opponents on the SCA battle field. So are swords. If there's a good way to incorporate rules to reflect this, I'll be behind it 100%. I like our wars to be realistic as possible. But, I cannot see how this can be accomplished in a simple, elegant fashion.

Of course, your Grace, you could simply shuck arrow shots like I've seen several of your Noble Peers do, but I don't see you doing that.

Trevor

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Sun Jan 07, 2001 7:22 pm

Quote from Trevor:
"If mail was so effective against the weapons of the day, why did mail become supplanted by plate?"
Warhammers, maces, flails, polearms, other impact weapons....
Mail protects primarily against a sharp edge. Due to it's flexibility, it distributes an impact very poorly, allowing an impact to get maybe 90% force through. These impact weapons, comming into fashion, were VERY effective against the fellow in chainmail. That is when plate began to come about. The arrow, as you said, went through that knight's leg on both sides, the saddle, and into the horse. Bodkin arrows, fired from a heavy draw (80+ lbs) longbow, pierce plate! On numerous ocassions, the Welsh archers hired by the Crown of England is the only thing that prevented English cities from being taken by rank upon rank of French knights in full plate (sadly, I have not the documentation to back this up, but I'm sure someone here does). A recent excavation of the moat around the Tower of London found a Welsh longbow of Ash. It has a 200lb draw, and I think that will pierce platemail.
There is also the case of native American archery. The conquistadors were very annoyed by the natives killing them with arrows, but could not see how they did it. One group of soldiers offered a captive his freedom if he would demonstrate his archery for them. The heaviest breast and back in camp were mounted on a wood pole, with a second set behind it in like fashion on a pole. The native took aim from thirty feet. His arrow was a reed tipped with a fire-hardened piece of wood. The arrow went entirely through the first suit, out the back and into the second breastplate. The conquistadors began wearing baggier clothing to deter the arrows, so the natives began aiming for their heads.
The bow is dangerous, and one of man's oldest, greatest tools. Plate does not stop an arrow, definitely. Other weapons were the cause of plate; the bow had been in use long before the comming of plate.

Magmaforge =)
Rules of Life
1)Shoot first, ask questions later
2)women and children first
3)Pillage, THEN burn!

[This message has been edited by Magmaforge (edited 01-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magmaforge (edited 01-07-2001).]

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Jan 07, 2001 9:40 pm

It's been my experience that the majority of advances in the weapons you're describing take place _after_ the Transitional period started. With the exception of maces and axes, I don't believe that the other weapons had come into vogue yet. The halberd got it's start as the Voulge in the latter half of the 14th century, and was the answer to the increased armor. The war hammer also got started in the 14th century. I don't know when the flail came into use, but I _think_ there's a pic of one in the MAciejowski bible (mid-thirteenth century).

In any event, the longbow definitely had the power to pierce the armor assumed to be worn in the SCA.

Vinnie · Post by **Vinnie** » Sun Jan 07, 2001 10:42 pm

Magmaforge said:

> Bodkin arrows, fired from a heavy draw (80+ lbs) longbow, pierce plate!

I have not found this to be the case when I tested it.
Arrow speeed and weight count, the "draw weight does not.
I used a Jennings compound bow, set for 75lbs, and that gave an arrow speed the same as a "over 100lb" draw long bow did.
The test was against a hardened (about RC30 or so, a good knife could scratch it) flat plate, aprox 14 guage at 30 or so feet.
None of the arrows did more than a 1/32 to 1/16th pin hole at the base of a dimple in the plate. Most did less, a dent at best.
Use a heavier arrow, speed went down, no hole. Lighter arrow and you get arrow splinters at impact. The arrow tip was a hardend steel four sided target point, close to a "bodkin" point.

> On numerous ocassions, the Welsh archers hired by the Crown of England is the only
> thing that prevented English cities from being taken by rank upon rank of French
> knights in full plate (sadly, I have not the documentation to back this up, but I'm sure
> someone here does).

More of the "Gold BB" effect than through and through armor killing. Put 10,000 arrows in the air, amd some will find gaps, it is as plain as that.
A lot of what was written is as true as cowboy movies from the '40's were. Not very true at all.

> recent excavation of the moat around the Tower of London found a Welsh longbow of Ash.
> It has a 200lb draw, and I think that will pierce platemail.

When I see what an archer needs to do to use a 100lb longbow, I do not think there was the wide spread use of 200lb pull bows.
1/4 inch thick armor has been found, that does not mean it was common.

> There is also the case of native American archery. The conquistadors were very annoyed by the natives killing them with arrows

.........SNIP..........

> His arrow was a reed tipped with a fire-hardened piece of wood. The arrow went
> entirely through the first suit, out the back and into the second breastplate.

The first five people who can do this to hardened armor in front of me will recieve $100.00 each. You use a "reed tipped with a fire-hardened piece of wood".
If you fail, I get the bucks. :-)

I will bring the armor plate.
Place is anywhere in the central West Kingdom.

> The bow is dangerous, and one of man's oldest, greatest tools.

All true.

> Plate does not stop an arrow, definitely.

Wrong. Most (near all) times hardened armor will.

> Other weapons were the cause of plate; the bow had been in use long before the comming of plate.

True.

If I sound "snitty" I do not mean to. I belive that you read or heard the points that you raise. I just find that it does not match what I saw in the test I did.

Sounds like time for a full test! :-)

Now who can we get to do it?

------------------
Vinnie
Dino in Reno