Shots that Hit something on the way in.

Rey · Post by **Rey** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:21 am

Looking at a few video's out there of fights and saw several people state that it hit something on the way in (ie sword, shield whatever) but the shot seems to hit fairly hard (as best as you can tell from a video, no one knows but the guy in the armor). I've also herd this during Tournaments at Larger wars and not real sure which kingdoms this is practiced in.

But my question is this. Who out there doesn't call a shot if it hit something on the way in regardless of how hard it hit you and why?

My take on it is if hit you hard enough who cares if you bank shot it of something else?

Rey

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:24 am

I've run across both. Personally, if it lands with force I don't care if it hit six other guys, my shield, the moon, and a waterbearer, I'll take it.

I've known others that claim the tiniest bit of tape contact with a shield or basket makes the shot "bad" because they "blocked" it.

*shrug*

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:47 am

Hell. I take shots from my own sword if my block still hits my head hard enough.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:49 am

It doesn't matter what came before, merely how it landed as far as I am concerned, as the person receiving the shot. Good is good. Talk is boring.

-Aaron

Tristan vom Schwarzwald · Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:50 am

Nissan Maxima wrote:Hell. I take shots from my own sword if my block still hits my head hard enough.

Me too.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:53 am

Nissan Maxima wrote:Hell. I take shots from my own sword if my block still hits my head hard enough.

Thought that was in the rules somewhere?

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:30 pm

Blocks make a blow not land with sufficient force to be acknowledged. If the blow lands with sufficient force to be acknowledged, it was not blocked.

If you managed to touch the blow on its way in, but did not prevent it from landing with sufficient force to be acknowledged, you have performed what in chess is called a "useless interposition". :twisted:

I've hit myself hard enough to call it good :roll:

Even worse, it was on an illegal target. Unless I've hit you, you can hardly imagine what the tip of my sword to the instep feels like :cry:

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:54 pm

Kilkenny wrote:I've hit myself hard enough to call it good Even worse, it was on an illegal target. Unless I've hit you, you can hardly imagine what the tip of my sword to the instep feels like

Well, I don't know if I hit as hard as you...But I've done that to myself once or twice....Damn little guys moving out of the way..He shoulda just stood there and let me hit him.... :lol:

Back on topic though...If you hit me with sufficent force, as others have said...I don't care if I got a partial block in...if it's good, it's good...It's the amount of force at the time of the hit, not what it connected with on the way in to me...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:05 pm

Wrestling with a polearm, I ended up crotch shotting myself off his shield. I laughed and called it good....died of embrassment.

-Aaron

JvR · Post by **JvR** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:15 pm

Maeryk wrote:
I've known others that claim the tiniest bit of tape contact with a shield or basket makes the shot "bad" because they "blocked" it.

*shrug*

Holy crap. Thats lame. If it hit them with force, they didn't block squat. I don't fight in the SCA but to me thats kind of lame if someone did that.

Is it acceptable to not take a blow if one makes a halfassed block that ultimately does not work?

Is that still rhino hiding?

asbrand · Post by **asbrand** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:26 pm

Like said by others...don't matter what it hit before it came in contact with me...if it is hard enough...I'll take it.

Likewise, don't matter how perfectly clean that shot was...if it was NOT hard enough...I won't take it. You cannot "annoy" me to death.

Cuan · Post by **Cuan** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:35 pm

From what I have seen, when fighters do not take a blow that strikes them and then say "it hit X on the way in", what they are saying is that they know that they were hit, but that the blow was not hard enough and that the lack of sufficient force may be because the blow was partly blocked or redirected before it reached the intended target. I know of no kingdom where the convention is that a blow is not good where, after being obstructed or redirected, it hits a legal target with sufficient force.

Are there individuals who think that if you bob your head or brush the incoming blow with your shield that you may take refuge in saying "it hit X on the way in" and not take a blow? Probably. Human nature admits of infinite variety and as a species we are particularly good at self-deception.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:37 pm

"OW! (hobble). No good! It touched my shield!"

(Absolute, honest, quote.. the next one did NOT touch his shield, then he bitched I hit him too hard).

Apollonian · Post by **Apollonian** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:09 pm

There might be some that practice this failed philosophy. I can't think of a single Atlantian that does.

Falcone

Dafydd · Post by **Dafydd** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:50 pm

Like the other respondents in this thread, I could care less what happens to a shot on its way in. It's what it felt like when it hits that mattered. If a shot's force is badly dissipate by an attempted block that doesn't quite stop it clean, I might explain to my opponent after the fight (or immediately, if it's fighter practice), but mostly I just trust them to recognize what happened.

About a zillion years ago, in an Atenveldt Crown final, I put everything I had left after a 20 minute fight (at about 6000 feet...) into a block...and the shot still hit me. Not real hard, but the point was that I saw it coming, did my utmost to block, and my equally-tired opponent still managed to put a sword on me. I remember thinking "that man just earned the throne," and fell over (with considerable relief!).

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:57 pm

It happens, if in a tourney, I just smile to myself and keep going.

If its in practice, I reiterate, to whoever it is, dont call shots like that.

Its either light or good, if you feel the need to let me know.

Anything else, you could be wrong on, and well will look silly, when I point out, that no the shot did not glance, or was not tippy or the other 5 million words you can try to explain why a shot was not good.

Light or good will do just fine.

Wat of Sarum · Post by **Wat of Sarum** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:31 am

Often when I have seen this happen it's not done out of malice.

People feel a big shock on their shield/sword hand and at the same time they feel some impact on their head. They assume it was their shield hitting their head, or whatever.

By the same token I have had to tell guys that they aren't dead, it was their shield, not my sword, that hit them, even if it was hard. Stuff happens pretty fast and people don't always catch it.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:39 am

A good example is gauntlets with big bell cuffs on it.

Yes, if I hit your cuff, I hit your guantlet. But if I hit it above your wrist bones.. that's an arm, NOT a hand.

lochinvar76 · Post by **lochinvar76** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:58 am

Wat of Sarum wrote:Often when I have seen this happen it's not done out of malice.

People feel a big shock on their shield/sword hand and at the same time they feel some impact on their head. They assume it was their shield hitting their head, or whatever.

By the same token I have had to tell guys that they aren't dead, it was their shield, not my sword, that hit them, even if it was hard. Stuff happens pretty fast and people don't always catch it.

I usually err on the side of caution in these events. If I take a firm whack while fighting and I have no clue what hit me, I'll just assume I'm dead even though it could have been a haft, a shield or being slammed by a spearmans elbow. I'd rather be known as a fighter who takes shots that weren't good than the fighter who shrugs off blows.

As for 'it was blocked' thing... I started in a steel combat group where the rule was that a shot had to be 'clean' to be considered good. There was a learning curve when I came to the SCA and I did do this, for only a single practice and before my authorization. I'm in full agreement that if you're hit with enough force, be it your weapon or someone elses, you should take it.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:24 pm

Tristan vom Schwarzwald wrote:
Nissan Maxima wrote:Hell. I take shots from my own sword if my block still hits my head hard enough.

Me too.

I wish more people did this.

I spent about 2omins one day smacking a stick jock (he really is, doesn't care about history at all and takes it as a compliment when you say he looks like a Mad Max extra) in the head with a pole arm, and he never took the shot.. even though I could see each hit forcibly moving his head!

He explained to me later "They didn't count because he was blocking them with his sword."

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Have you ever heard this one?

"Well, the shot hit my helmet and would have been good, but it would not have hit me because my helm is so big."

Or this one

"The shot struck true and well, but because of my girth it would not have killed me." (only sliced the fat)

The first did happen to me, the second is a second hand account.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:56 pm

Vladimir wrote:Have you ever heard this one?

"Well, the shot hit my helmet and would have been good, but it would not have hit me because my helm is so big."

Or this one

"The shot struck true and well, but because of my girth it would not have killed me." (only sliced the fat)

The first did happen to me, the second is a second hand account.

(after three good shots to the leg) "Well, you would have killed my horse.. now I'm on foot.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:00 pm

Maeryk wrote:
(after three good shots to the leg) "Well, you would have killed my horse.. now I'm on foot.

Tell him that the presumed armour standard states that the horse is fully barded, the shots were no good, and that he should remount.

Then continue hitting the leg until he says "Good".

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:29 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:Hell. I take shots from my own sword if my block still hits my head hard enough.

Same here. Sir Ix clobbered me with a headshot once in that fashion. I easily got my sword up for the block, but it knocked my sword back so hard into my head, I took it as a kill. I had not been hit that hard all day!

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:41 pm

I take any shot that hits me with the correct force. Be it from my own team, other guys, from behind, from orbit, anything.

I should be aware of every threat on the field at all times, so if it hits me I take it.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:51 pm

"A good example is gauntlets with big bell cuffs on it.

Yes, if I hit your cuff, I hit your gauntlet. But if I hit it above your wrist bones.. that's an arm, NOT a hand. "

I can't tell you how many times I had to tell people wearing those huge cuffed plastic bearclaw gaunts "You see that tape smear? I just put that there. Look at it. It's nowhere near your wrist. Now, I know that FELT like a hand shot, but the tape smear doesn't lie...."

Most people "got it" and ditched those stupid cuffs.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:53 pm

Man, I've legged MYSELF in a tourney.

If weapon hits me hard enough, edge (or legal striking surface) on, I take it.

So do those I train.

I've run into the "My helmet is really tall, that blow wouldn't have struck my head" excuse before. So I let him call the blow as he wished.

And I hit him over, and over, and over... ramping up each shot....

Did I mention his helm RANG with very hit?

He took the 6th or 7th shot becuse he was getting dizzy.... Not becuase I hit him with a good shot - but becuase he was dizzy.

.

Thorsteinn Raudskeggr · Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:41 pm

Three perspectives:

#1: I once had Duke Rolf hit me above my sightline with one of his mace's. I asked if that was haft or head, as it had hit with some great force, he told me it was head. I took the kill with much relief.

#2: First time I fought Achilles of Sparta he threw thrust after thrust with his spear to my head. Every time it hit I called it good, and everytime he said that it had hit my shield squarely, and my head not at all (I kept feeling my basket making the contact). I ended up winning in a way that taught me something else too, but that's another story.

#3: First time I fought Viscount Dregel Alewolf in a Rose's Tourney, and I caught him with a backhand anviling his sword to his head. He called it good. I told him that it had hit his sword first. He told me that as far as he was concerned I had caused a weapon to hit him edge on with sufficient force, and that was good enough. Truly a great lesson for a new fighter to learn.

-Ivan

tvetree · Post by **tvetree** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:22 pm

Maeryk wrote:A good example is gauntlets with big bell cuffs on it.

Yes, if I hit your cuff, I hit your guantlet. But if I hit it above your wrist bones.. that's an arm, NOT a hand.

On this note.If I go to block and miss it a bit which causes my wrist/hand/swordbasket to be hit I try and take it as good shot.If the person hits any of said spots and I didn't move said target,I ingore it.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:38 pm

+1 on the gauntlet cuff.

I really hate those ugly as sin plastic "bear claws" gauntlets. See guys wearing them with cuffs nearly to the elbow... And take them all as "cuff shots".

.

Malcolmthebold · Post by **Malcolmthebold** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:28 am

i do hear "it came off the shield, or sword, or whatever" usually in one of three cases

this usually happens when a shot makes a sound. there are times that i have been hit in the head, and the shot makes a nice ringing sound. i am in motion at the time and have a hard time judging if the shot moved my head, or i did. that is usually when i hear "oh, it came off your shield. don't take it, it was skippy" or something to that effect.
i have also used it as and explanation. i used to have a floating elbow that was really loud when it was hit with just the barest force. the thing was like a bell. if you hit it square it just clunked, but if you tipped it the locals would think it was time to come to dinner. there are times i have told people, "eh, you rang the cop, but it came off the sword, and didn't have anything on it."
then there are the times when i doubt that i have actually hit someone. for instance, my squire brother has the annoying habit of getting his shield in the way of my off-side at just the last moment. there are times when he will take the shot as good, and i will say, "you sure? it looked like you had some shield on it."
in essence, the only time that "it caught ______ on the way in" should matter, is if the shot was slowed down enough to be called light. the general rule we go by it if you feel it, take it. i spun into a tree limb once and called it good. my squire brother powers through my defence all the time. he has blown right through some of my best blocks and still smashed my skull. dead is dead.

i think my spelling sucks.

mal

asbrand · Post by **asbrand** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:56 am

Friend of mine (long time ago) took a haft of a polearm to the chest so hard, it knocked him back about 10 feet and down on his arse. He called it good.

Guy who did it apologized (it was an accident) and said it was the haft...he didn't have to take it.

Friend said he didn't care...it was good enough to have "defeated" him regardless.

He was done for the day, too... :lol:

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:37 am

Hah, got ya all beat.. Actually have heard this one

"My belt buckle is a static shield. That blow was no good"...

Malcolmthebold · Post by **Malcolmthebold** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:03 pm

Angusm0628 wrote:Hah, got ya all beat.. Actually have heard this one

"My belt buckle is a static shield. That blow was no good"...

tell me you are lying to make friends. please.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:05 pm

Malcolmthebold wrote:
Angusm0628 wrote:Hah, got ya all beat.. Actually have heard this one

"My belt buckle is a static shield. That blow was no good"...

tell me you are lying to make friends. please.

I kid you not Malcolm..