New from HE- 15th C. Pollaxe simulators

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:09 pm

In another thread, d-farrell asked about the pollaxes we use for our tournaments. We've been intending to put them up and have not gotten around to it, so this seems like a good time to get off my butt and do it.

Right. So what we have here is a very realistic looking 15th C. pollaxe simulator. It is an aluminum core with a thick, semi-hard rubber skin molded on. As Jehan de Pelham points out, the aluminum is essentially hermetically sealed inside rubber the density of a hockey puck, or a car tire. They have long langets which allow you to mount the head on a haft of your choice, and replace the haft if it gets damaged. We've used these at our last couple of tournaments, and they are -awesome-.

The beauty of using these is you can go at it full bore and dramatically reduce the damage to your armour.

They are hefty, approximating the weight of a metal pollaxe, and you won't have to pull your shots to preserve your armour. They look fantastic, and will enhance rather than detract from your historical combat display.

Price is $164.95 for the head, which comes ready to assemble on a 1 1/8" x 1 3/8", 57" long haft. We can mount it for you for an additional $50, but remember that doing so will add -substantially- to your shipping charges.

They are not yet on the website, but are available for Christmas giving. To order, contact Jeffrey directly- jeffrey @ historicenterprises.com.

Thanks for looking!

Gwen

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:19 am

Those are really cool

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:47 pm

I have been waiting for those since you unveiled them at last year's tournament. Now I just gotta find the funds.

They look GREAT, Gwen!

thaddeusmoore · Post by **thaddeusmoore** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:59 am

These look great! Are these being offered with a hexagonal shaft? If so is the shaft rattan or hard wood?

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:13 am

thaddeusmoore wrote:These look great! Are these being offered with a hexagonal shaft? If so is the shaft rattan or hard wood?

I gotta say, I'm honestly surprised someone prefers a hexagonal haft over a rectangular/square shape... realizing part way through a blow from a high guard (at least once I'm in full harness) that the head of my axe isn't aligned quite right is one of the reasons I am thinking of sanding the hexagonal haft I have down on the sides. Haven't had the time/equipment to actually get that done yet though.

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:29 am

Dave,

Irregular octagonal hafts seem to be the norm in surviving pole weapons. None are rectangular. Some are almost round. There is a recent study published on pole arms which delves into their construction and history. (http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Waldman_Hafted.htm)

I make ours from slightly rectangular stock and chamfer the corners. It isn't hard to know which end is facing where. Eventually I'll take the time to shape the whole thing a bit more.

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:46 pm

The langets fit a haft that is rectangular at the head end. As long as the head end is rectangular, you can profile the rest of the haft into any shape you prefer.

Jeff prefers slightly rectangular with the corners taken off, so I suppose technically it's an octagon.

Oh, and Jeff is working on butt spikes for these too. Not available quite yet, but soonish.

Gwen

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:29 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote: Oh, and Jeff is working on butt spikes for these too. Not available quite yet, but soonish.

Gwen

Not certain where I'm going to get the money from but I'll buy 2 heads and 2 butt spikes once they are available. I love your work.

Sean

d-farrell2 · Post by **d-farrell2** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Kel Rekuta wrote:Dave,

Irregular octagonal hafts seem to be the norm in surviving pole weapons. None are rectangular. Some are almost round. There is a recent study published on pole arms which delves into their construction and history. (http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Waldman_Hafted.htm)

I make ours from slightly rectangular stock and chamfer the corners. It isn't hard to know which end is facing where. Eventually I'll take the time to shape the whole thing a bit more.

yeah, this is more what I was thinking, not a sharp corner, but also not equal width sides. Makes sense, and thanks for the link!

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:45 pm

**Disregard. Just read that they're not in another thread. Damn it.**

Now how are these for SCA combat, Gwen?

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:02 pm

@ Sean-

Price is $164.95 for the head, which comes ready to assemble on a 1 1/8" x 1 3/8", 57" long haft. We can mount it for you on a haft of red oak for an additional $50, but remember that doing so will add -substantially- to your shipping charges.

They are not yet on the website, but are available for purchase now. To order, contact Jeffrey directly- jeffrey @ historicenterprises.com. (remove the spaces to make the address work)

Gwen

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:31 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:@ Sean-

Price is $164.95 for the head, which comes ready to assemble on a 1 1/8" x 1 3/8", 57" long haft. We can mount it for you on a haft of red oak for an additional $50, but remember that doing so will add -substantially- to your shipping charges.

They are not yet on the website, but are available for purchase now. To order, contact Jeffrey directly- jeffrey @ historicenterprises.com. (remove the spaces to make the address work)

Gwen

Gwen,

I'm going to have to wait until End of Year bonus comes in and assess new toys after that. I also want a 2nd kolben since I love my current one so much. I'll probably wait until you have the butt spikes as well. Hafting them myself shouldn't be that difficult. I'll have to find the right grade of wood to run through the joiner and planer... but I'll probably go fell my own and hand-scrape them to size, unless you can find away to make these SCA legal in which case I'll have to buy extras so I can put them on rattan for special occasions.

Sean

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:33 pm

Jeff's response, clipped from the other thread-
-----------
The fact is, other people make axe/hammer heads that work just fine for SCA, so I saw no need to make this piece also suitable for SCA.

The entire goal of this item was to produce something that would offer a realistic pollaxe combat simulator that would

A) be reasonably safe (ie, not lethal like a steel one)
B) not excessively damage historical armour
C) look as close to a real pollaxe as possible
D) be somewhat quick to manufacture

My intent was also to produce something that we could use in our own tournaments, so that was the primary application. After seeing photos of our April 2008 and later events, others have expressed interest in purchasing these for similar purposes to ours, so I adjusted the design for ease of manufacture and ease of haft replacement. In several ways, these design modifications made the pollaxe closer to historical designs, which pleased me greatly.

Given the inherent design considerations of the item, and that...
1) the striking surfaces are much narrower than required by SCA rules,
2) that a steel armature/stiffener is absolutely necessary to make this piece work,
3) there's no way to incorporate rattan into the design to make it more suitable for SCA combat

...I see no way I could alter the design to make it work for SCA. Sorry about that, but the SCA has different needs than we do.

I would like to note that my Tourney Club is acceptable for SCA combat, according to the letter of the rules. Of course there's always the possibility that a marshall who has a particular interpretation of the rules might be unwilling to accept a new and unfamiliar weapon type. The piece has reasonable resilience, large enough striking surfaces, no metal parts whatsoever, AND is available with a RATTAN core!

I wish I could make the pollaxe suitable for SCA, but it just wouldn't work or look the same, so I'm just not interested in altering it for SCA at this time. My apologies.
_________________
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
Check out competitive Historical Jousting at WorldJoust.com

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:02 pm

I wish I could make the pollaxe suitable for SCA, but it just wouldn't work or look the same, so I'm just not interested in altering it for SCA at this time.

Nor should you, Jeff- it is beautiful for what it is, and there are plenty enough pollaxe solutions available for the SCA that you can stake your claim to high-fidelity combat simulation and still have plenty of buyers. If I had a proper white harness and enough willing opponents in this area to play with one of these, I'd put it on my wish list.

I can imagine something similar cast in silver/grey rubber throughout and designed to fit over a rattan haft for our game, but I think it would have to start from a clean drawing board design-wise.

Klaus

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:58 am

In retrospect I'm quite glad someone is doing things like this OUTSIDE of the SCA market. I think adherence to rules that were first penned 30 years ago tends to stifle creativity. We can do better and here is a fine example of where we could be if we were willing to change.

I'll still be getting a pair... but probably after several other purchases.

Sean

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:03 pm

As Jeff pointed out to me, if a few / couple / bunch of SCA guys wanted to use weapons like this, there would be nothing stopping you from getting together a non-official SCA practice and having a go with them.

Just a thought.

Gwen

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:32 pm

Sean Powell wrote:In retrospect I'm quite glad someone is doing things like this OUTSIDE of the SCA market. I think adherence to rules that were first penned 30 years ago tends to stifle creativity. We can do better and here is a fine example of where we could be if we were willing to change.

I'll still be getting a pair... but probably after several other purchases.

Sean

Sean,

I think it would be great fun to have our bout, off the SCA site, with these.

It would be fun.

With respect,

-Aaron

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:38 pm

See, there ya go. All it takes is a little thinking outside the box.

Take pictures.

Gwen

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:03 pm

And here I was, saying to myself just the other day how I was going to curtail my combat gear purchases.

Well, I guess that's out the window. Time to start funneling money aside for some pole axe heads. We'll see if Adria will accept them, and even if not, as has been pointed out. Some friendly non-sanctioned sparing is more than possible.

Jason

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:54 am

Just think- you could start a revolution!

Gwen

Rolland · Post by **Rolland** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:19 am

fantastic work brothers in arms jousting troop will be ordering a set soon

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:59 pm

Black Swan Designs wrote:Just think- you could start a revolution!

Gwen

Gwen,
I like you're way of thinking.
To the revolution!

Jason Smith

Black Swan Designs · Post by **Black Swan Designs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:51 pm

Just call me CÃ©sar. Viva la revoluciÃ³n!

Gwen

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:58 pm

I'll be getting at least enough to make a matching set if not more once they are up. For those special, off the radar, backyard practices ya know. Need to get off my butt and order some of the Tourney Clubs as well.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:57 am

Here are a couple of closer photos-

I'm going to try to put it up on the site tomorrow.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:57 pm

Hi,

Thought I'd

this topic, now that I have the Pollaxe available for purchase on the website.

http://historicenterprises.biz/pollaxe- ... th=101_207

I have a few of these in stock now and can make more easily.

Happy holidays!

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:07 pm

Jeff or Gwen,

In the video's I've seen, I've only noticed axe vs axe combat with these. Have you done any sword vs axe or such? I'm assuming that there might be a bit of an issue with the outer material taking damage from an improperly blocked sword cut.

Just trying to get a feel for how I can bring these into the local Adrian group. Regardless, it looks like I'll have to buy 2, as weapons are always more fun in pairs.

Which speaking of that, I think January should see me making the purchase.

Jason

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:27 pm

Jason,

We always use matched weapons in our tournaments, so have never put axe against longsword. Honestly I would NOT recommend it. The axes were always intended to be used in pairs and swords would not be kind to the hafts, nor the heads. Blunted swords would probably not cut up the heads, but the heads would certainly suffer if used against swords even if blunted.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:48 pm

MacGowan Metals wrote:And here I was, saying to myself just the other day how I was going to curtail my combat gear purchases.

Well, I guess that's out the window. Time to start funneling money aside for some pole axe heads. We'll see if Adria will accept them, and even if not, as has been pointed out. Some friendly non-sanctioned sparing is more than possible.

Jason

I'll be your huckleberry Jason....

Not sanctioned...No worries..We can go behind the trees and pummel the shit out each other...

Works for me...

Now I must save some pennies for one of these....But I wonder what would be a better haft...Ash or Maple....I'm pretty sure Ely won't let me swipe some of the California Oak he has so Ash or Maple...or Elm...decisions,decisions...

MacGowan Metals · Post by **MacGowan Metals** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:42 pm

Jeff,

That was what I was thinking. Guess I will have to buy 2 axes then. I wouldn't worry to much about the hafts, but the heads are a goodly investment and wouldn't want to be putting undue wear on them.

I just showed the pictures of the axes to our local leadership, and they are impressed and certainly interested.

Jason

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:36 pm

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:....But I wonder what would be a better haft...Ash or Maple....I'm pretty sure Ely won't let me swipe some of the California Oak he has so Ash or Maple...or Elm...decisions,decisions...

I would recommend against ash. Historically it would be the correct wood, but today's ash is really bad. It's cut wrong for the grain, leading to weak spots which break. It's also kiln dried, making it really brittle. We tried ash on the earlier versions and they just didn't hold up. Broke all three really fast.

Of all the woods noted, hickory was unavailable thicker than 3/4" here. Maple sold here is too heavy and seems too brittle.

I believe red oak would be best and will be mounting my two on that. It seems to have the straightest grain and fewest knots. In appearance, ash, white and red oak are very similar.

If you can get other woods and have a go, please let me know what works best for you. Some woods are specific to particular areas, even with commercial hardwood suppliers, so I'm probably more limited than areas where the trees are logged.

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:15 pm

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:
Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:....But I wonder what would be a better haft...Ash or Maple....I'm pretty sure Ely won't let me swipe some of the California Oak he has so Ash or Maple...or Elm...decisions,decisions...
I would recommend against ash. Historically it would be the correct wood, but today's ash is really bad. It's cut wrong for the grain, leading to weak spots which break. It's also kiln dried, making it really brittle. We tried ash on the earlier versions and they just didn't hold up. Broke all three really fast.

Of all the woods noted, hickory was unavailable thicker than 3/4" here. Maple sold here is too heavy and seems too brittle.

I believe red oak would be best and will be mounting my two on that. It seems to have the straightest grain and fewest knots. In appearance, ash, white and red oak are very similar.

If you can get other woods and have a go, please let me know what works best for you. Some woods are specific to particular areas, even with commercial hardwood suppliers, so I'm probably more limited than areas where the trees are logged.

This wood was cut by the city when Ely worked for them...He saved the town money by having it hauled to his place instead of the dump or turned into firewood...And he has his own mill so I can cut them anyway I need to get some good straight grain out of it...We usually use the wood for furniture we make, but I think I can snag some 2x2 sqiare stock and scrape it down to fit the head...

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:48 am

If the ash you have access to is seasoned, which it sounds like it is, that's great and a completely different thing than you can get from a hardwood supplier. It's a very good thing-- seasoned wood is great when you can get it. I'm envious.

Seasoned ash is really the best thing for pollarm hafts. You'll still want the straightest grain possible, but the brittleness won't be so much of a concern.