Vendel/Viking and Long(2h) Sword

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:52 am

I'm in a bit of a predicament:

There is an upcoming tourney where only greatswords will be used, and I've been slowly getting my kit in order, in fact all I'm lacking is the chain. Great!

Well, no, after I've gotten the chainmail(not really required, but it just looks better) I'll have a decent/good vendel/viking kit.

So: My plan is to get the chain(shortsleeved), make/buy longer sleeves for it, and get a new helmet, and go mid 13:th cent.

I have realised that I probably will not be ready in time. :cry:

I'm in trouble.
So plan B is to look for a longsword/polesword/reference to 2H usage of swords in the 800-1050 era.

Help?
I've been looking into the alleged us of a greatweapon of some sort by the varangian guard, but have runinto a possibility that it's just a mistransaltion of their dane axes.
Iso long seljuk sabres seem lika a possible alternative.

Ideas? Links?

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:27 am

Dane Axe.
[img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg228/olafharaldson/Pennsic%202009/IM000144.jpg[/img]

Thorsteinn Raudskeggr · Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:02 pm

Try here:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105889

We talk of Dacian Falx's, Nagamaki's, and Rhomphaia's.

Also in china there is the Bao Gua Dao aka Iron Great Sword.

-Ivan

Mikhail_Voronov · Post by **Mikhail_Voronov** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:57 pm

The famous weapon associated with the Varangian Guard is a double winged Dane Axe.

The double wings refer to the tips on the top and bottom of the blades, or the "wings". One on the bottom would be a bearded axe, top and bottom is a double winged axe. (not the two bladed axe that people sometimes think)

The haft of the weapon was probably around 5ft long.

It was most likely not much different from other daneaxes of the period. The varangians became famous for it though because well, they were rich emperors guards who were big, fierce, and looked really scary standing by the door with a 5 foot axe.

hope some of that helps

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:00 am

IvanIS wrote:Try here:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105889

We talk of Dacian Falx's, Nagamaki's, and Rhomphaia's.

Also in china there is the Bao Gua Dao aka Iron Great Sword.

-Ivan

Thanks for the thread, I've read it, but it really does not have any historical references.

-Olof, Mikhail: Thanks, I like axes but in this case I need to use a sword.

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:34 am

Yeah, I read that after I posted. Sorry... I have no help there.

Arngrim wrote:
IvanIS wrote:Try here:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105889

We talk of Dacian Falx's, Nagamaki's, and Rhomphaia's.

Also in china there is the Bao Gua Dao aka Iron Great Sword.

-Ivan

Thanks for the thread, I've read it, but it really does not have any historical references.

-Olof, Mikhail: Thanks, I like axes but in this case I need to use a sword.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:02 am

I.P. Stephenson. Romano-Byzantine Infantry Equipment. Gloucestershire, England: Tempus Publishing Ltd. 2006.

p92 for the reference and p94 for a picture.

Stephenson refers to a 1.8 meter long sword, "double edged, with a narrow, pointed blade, a guard, a long (two-handed(?)) grip..." The find was dated to the late 6th or early 7th centuries CE, and Stephenson mentions that he assumes it was most likely a cavalry weapon; this is based on similar swords showing up in "both Sassian and Islamic art, but only in depictions of mounted combat" and by the future use of similar looking swords as late as the 17th century by cavalry.

The image (sketch) of the blade shows a narrow but straight weapon, very long. It's certainly an interesting weapon! The find, plus corroborating art, demonstrates this was not some odd one-of, but I don't have any documentation on how common the use was, or whether a "viking" could have acquired one somehow.

talaananthes · Post by **talaananthes** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:23 pm

You killed a giant and took his sword and have to use it two handed like your comrades use their axes? I know it's not really historical . . . but it at least fits with the mythology of your time period? And maybe your persona's a silver-tongued rascal who only "claims" to have taken it from a giant, and actually just got someone to make it for him so that he could claim such a wild tale?

Halfdan · Post by **Halfdan** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:54 pm

http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f212/ ... 6c24e0.jpg

These are a couple of Ceremonial 2-handers from the Danish National Museum (just follow the photostream). Not exactly period, but if this was the worst oop thing on the field, I'd be a happy man.

Thorsteinn Raudskeggr · Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:45 pm

Arngrim wrote:Thanks for the thread, I've read it, but it really does not have any historical references.

What about the bit on Rhomphaia's?

I just finished building mine, and I'll post a pic of it soon. but here's the quote on the article on them with the bit on the Varangian Guard in it:

"Used almost exclusively by the Thracians, examples have been found dating from 300-400 B.C. As a weapon, the rhomphaia was feared (like the Falx) because of the cutting power afforded to it by the polearm like design. The rhomphaia forced the only documented change in Roman armour brought about by an encounter with a new weapon. After encountering the Falx in Dacia, the Romans added extra reinforcing bars to their helmets to protect against the powerful blows of this weapon. The Byzantines[2] used the Rhomphaia an exclusive Thracian weapon, although it most likely was used by a few units of foot soldiers dating somewhere between Byzantium's golden age of 900-1071 and maybe even earlier. It was not mentioned as a weapon like the falx however.It was indeed a falx-like weapon[3].Michael Psellos writes[4] that all Varangians without exception used the weapon.' "

According to the article (I know, it's still wiki) Psellos is a period source. He was a Byzantine writer living in the early and mid 11th century. So he would have been in the place and time to have seen what the Varangian's would have been using, and so it is most probable that they were using Rhomphaia's too. Being a local weapon of renown. they probably use it as it would have conferred some if its mythos to it's wielder thus, mebe, helping to persuade a potential assassin to seek other pursuit's

Anyway, having just played around with the Rhomphaia a bit and not actually hit anyone yet (there still 6 in of snow on the practice field). It feel's like a ton of fun, so ya might like it.

-Ivan

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:18 pm

Halfdan wrote:http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f212/JWC76/National%20Museum%20of%20Denmark/?action=view&current=936c24e0.jpg

These are a couple of Ceremonial 2-handers from the Danish National Museum (just follow the photostream). Not exactly period, but if this was the worst oop thing on the field, I'd be a happy man.

Extremely beutiful, but from the 15:th cent, so a true anacronism :-)

But a bit too late I'm afraid, although I admit that that's exactly what I'm hoping to find.

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:26 pm

IvanIS wrote:
Arngrim wrote:Thanks for the thread, I've read it, but it really does not have any historical references.

What about the bit on Rhomphaia's?

According to the article (I know, it's still wiki) Psellos is a period source.

-Ivan

I know, I know, and I'm still looking for the author, but i did read an article on the subject that reuted the idea as a mistranslation of the word Psellos uses. I'm still looking for the article, and that's one of the reasons I'm coming here: I need help with b the research.

If it is a "sword on a stick" that Psellos means,, then I'm on extremely shaky, but ground at least. If I can't find that article, or if it says what I remember, then I'm back to square one.

I've been looking for
I.P. Stephenson. Romano-Byzantine Infantry Equipment. Gloucestershire, England: Tempus Publishing Ltd. 2006.

But i can't seem to find it, does anyone have it, and perhaps could scan the 2relavant pages 92-94 or thereabouts?

Wish me luck, and I'm still looking :-)

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:48 pm

http://www.amazon.com/Romano-Byzantine- ... 175&sr=8-1

There's the book, on Amazon. I actually bought mine at an SCA event though. I do have the book - I'll see if I can get my scanner working over the next day or so (does not want to work with XP64 for some reason, worked before but the drivers are printing for 64 bit but not scanning..?) and scan the pertinent info.

It is a Byzantine weapon. It IS a 1.8 meter long, straight, two edged sword. And there's art showing use by cavalry. Main issue is, it's dated to the early 7th, and the earliest use I know of Varangian Guard was much later. I just don't have information whether the long swords were still in use three hundred years later. There's records of Theophilus using Rus as mercs in 839, which is only two hundred years after the date of the weapon found - that might be plausible, but it's not Varangian Guard.

Edit: Google gave me another image for you:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-FrplK ... q=&f=false

Scroll down to page 11, you'll see a sketch of the 1.8 meter sword (same sketch Stephenson copied, it looks like) attributed to a sword in a museum in Aphrodisias. This book basically confirms what Stephenson said and doesn't add anything, but Googlebooks has the image from this one, and not from the Stephenson work, and since they're the same....

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:37 am

Perfect,
a huge bucket of thanks is coming your way for christmas Owen!

A sword that actually existed during the 7:th century is in my opinion a better source than pictures from trajan's column an a single literary source that may be a mistranslation.

I'm still looking into the translation, but I haven't had much time to do so, mut if a falx/rhompoia was used in byzatium around the turn of the last milennium, and a long greatsword was used 400 yrÃ©ars before thet in the same region, it becomes a lot more plausable that I'll be able to find something from the years in between.

Thanks to everyone, I hope that all who's become interested will continue to scan sources, I mean how better to spend christmas than looking for huge weapons ;-)

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:21 pm

I found the article.
http://www.levantia.com.au/theory/rhomfaia.html

"This article was originally published in the Varangian Voice no. 22 (May 1992) pp. 24-6. It has been slightly revised."
It's written by Tim Dawson.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:07 pm

Goldina and Volkov "Helmets of the Tarasov Burial"
(in Russian)
This is a web summary (likewise in Russian) http://badaew.narod.ru/goldina.htm of finds

The burial is 5th century near the Kam river in extreme North Eastern Europe (see the set of red circles 1-8 on this map http://zhurnal.lib.ru/img/l/lurxe_e_w/h ... e-full.gif )
It includes frame helmets analogous to those found at Vendel

Burial 782 - an 18-20 year old woman
objects include a frame helmet and a sword described as:
"iron two handed sword in wood scabbard. The scabbard was likely decorated with bronze plates and the scabbard belt had a bronze belt end. The pommel was a Chalcedony disk.